The argument for a police officer killing a citizen

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Among the many arguments for a cop to kill a citizen, my favorite is the argument of reasonable fear. This is an actual legal doctrine, and it may even make sense. A cop is really really scared so he kills some dude. Gee, sorry.

The problem, of course, is that racists cops are automatically, by definition, mostly afraid of people of color, especially men, so that allows cops to kill black men and only rarely get in trouble.

My question is, does the reverse apply? Right now every person I know is more afraid of the police than ever before. I am afraid of what any particular random cop would do to a member of my family, especially family members that currently live or work right in the middle of the hot zone for protests and police brutality.

Is there an argument that citizens should start killing cops, to keep them in line?

That sounds like an ironic, or sarcastic, statement. A month ago maybe it was. But today? I’m not so sure.

Anyway, on this and related issues, The Daily has an interesting podcast in which Shaila Dewan of the New York Times outlines the reasons that the police usually don’t get in trouble when they murder or mutilate citizens. She covers the fear excuse, but many other aspects as well. Click here to hear.

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In Search of Sungudogo by Greg Laden, now in Kindle or Paperback
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65 thoughts on “The argument for a police officer killing a citizen

  1. Someone got away with shooting a cop who broke into the wrong apartment (or house) when they burst into the wrong apartment (or house). So yes you can shoot a cop if you are afraid of great bodily injury and they break into your home without a proper warrant.

    That argument won’t work when you are resisting a lawful arrest. So I wouldn’t recommend trying to kill a cop then.

    Best advice is to not break the law. Absent that, don’t resist arrest. That advice applies no matter the color of your skin. Despite all that, George Floyd still shouldn’t have died (or at least they should have gotten off him and sought medical attention for him).

    Protests are legal – but rioting, looting, arson, assaults, attacking police, throwing stuff at police, vandalism, breaking curfew and so forth are not.

    1. Protests are legal – but rioting, looting, arson, assaults, attacking police, throwing stuff at police, vandalism, breaking curfew and so forth are not.

      Ignoring any state sponsored agents provocateur which are frequently a feature of such violent episodes, only a few of these need to be seeded in the crowd at strategic places. You youself have commented on the presence of handy petrol cans, bricks and debris and license plate free vehicles with blacked out windows.

      Those police who drove cars rapidly into crowds behind a barrier should also be censured.

  2. Greg – I lost a comment to moderation. Not sure if moderation is post specific or me specific, but thought I would let you know.

  3. I see a lot of this may well be caused by the general public itself. Cops do a job, but if the public is all pissy about how the cops aren’t doing a good(opinion) job, then the cops up the vigorous application of enforcement, and the escalation-circle begins, and with many of the public & politicians all racist aholes the escalation is lopsided and you get today’s problems. I’ve heard many whites say … well if he was at home as he should be his death would not have happened! IMO the cop should be thrown in jail for a very long time, as even if the victim was a crook the cop should not have done what was done!!!

    1. I’ve heard many whites say … well if he was at home as he should be his death would not have happened!

      Such as those in the Detroit suburb of St Clair Shores.

      Many in St Clair Shores share the president’s world view that the police and national guard are heroically battling violent agitators, not brutally suppressing largely peaceful protesters.

      Detroit’s largely peaceful protests seen very differently from white suburb One may now have to register to read such articles – sorry.

      Of course Trump know how to appeal to ‘his base’; “Trump shares letter calling peaceful protesters terrorists”. See above source front page.

    1. Except that it isn’t an organization and isn’t violent. The clue that you’re full of shit again is the source you cite.

      We get it ricka. You don’t like minorities. You don’t like people who oppose all of the things you support: suppression of voting rights, elimination of civil liberties, destroying the environment, “foreigners” – the list of things you want stopped at any cost is endless, so you need to invent crap about the opposition.

      I’m sure your ooga booga stories about antifa go over well at your klan meetings. Nobody with an IQ above the temperature where skin forms on pudding buys your shit.

  4. Antifa isn’t categorized as a racist organization – it is a political organization – a philosophy – a violent philosophy…

    And the incitement to violence of Trump’s rhetoric isn’t encouraging fascist methods in the police and the violent white supremacy crew I suppose.

    Trust RickA to try to create dragons where there be none.

    Why Trump Is So Obsessed With Antifa

    Meanwhile some more rational thought:

    This is just the beginning, I promise you: an open letter to Donald Trump.

    Shame that RickA cannot show a similar level of circumspection.

  5. RickA in his bubble points fingers at Antifa when in reality:

    False social media rumors about so-called antifa activists traveling en masse into rural areas of America have led rightwing vigilantes to carry out armed patrols of small cities and towns in the western United States and beyond.

    In some cases, local activists planning peaceful protests in support of the Black Lives Matter movement and in protest at the killing of George Floyd by a white Minneapolis police officer have been inundated with death threats.

    Since Donald Trump tweeted recently that antifa would be declared a terrorist group, the term has gained broader currency on the American right and is seen as a dire threat. In fact, it simply means “anti-fascist” and is used to describe a wide spectrum of leftist and anarchist groups and individuals. It has no existence as a separate organization.

    Source

    It is Trump who is the biggest problem right now stirring up feelings simmering below the surface, he has encouraged the WASP element to use violence as a matter of course. Any other person could be charged for inciting violence. Start putting the blame where it belongs RickA.

  6. Hotair? God rick, did you let your subscription to “This week in Nazi bullcrap” lapse?

    Antifa is a philosophy — it says the stuff you believe in: authoritarianism, marginalizing minorities, women, and the poor, restricting voting rights so only “good” people can vote — is wrong and needs to be opposed. Your “hurt people, break shit, burn stuff down” line is pure bullshit, aimed at delusional assholes like yourself.

    1. JFC mikeN, how does a mind even as simple as yours make the immediate leap that looting = a “group” that only exists in the minds of racists?

      Nobody denies there was looting. The point is that rickA’s bullshit about antifa being whatever it is he’s claiming it to be has no basis in fact.

  7. Meanwhile, the real threat to American citizens – heavily armed rightwing extremists – is out on the streets:

    False social media rumors about so-called antifa activists traveling en masse into rural areas of America have led rightwing vigilantes to carry out armed patrols of small cities and towns in the western United States and beyond.

    In some cases, local activists planning peaceful protests in support of the Black Lives Matter movement and in protest at the killing of George Floyd by a white Minneapolis police officer have been inundated with death threats.

    […]

    The FBI has said there is “no evidence”NBC News has reported of antifa involvement in violence linked to the Floyd protests and one supposed antifa group posting violent rhetoric on the internet was in fact linked to white supremacists.

    But in the Idaho city of Coeur d’Alene groups of 30-50 men armed with semi-automatic weapons have occupied downtown streets on successive evenings this week, guarding against supposed busloads of radical leftists rumored to traveling from cities such as Spokane or Seattle, according to local residents and social media materials obtained by the Guardian.

    Videos posted to social media by supporters of the vigilante groups showed dozens of people walking up and down a downtown shopping strip, with many open-carrying AR-15s and other semi-automatic long guns, and sporting tactical apparel.

    Source: The Independent

    These idiots are going to kill somebody soon.

    1. Re: BBD “These idiots are going to kill somebody soon.”

      Likely, and I think the odds are that Trump will then call them “good people” and reiterate the lies that led them to do the deed.

    2. I read an article about a black woman complaining about Muslims who were wielding AR-15s to protect their store. She was upset that these Ayrabs had these guns that were keeping her from looting.

  8. Re: MikeN “I read an article about a black woman complaining about Muslims who were wielding AR-15s to protect their store. She was upset that these Ayrabs had these guns that were keeping her from looting.”

    That sounds a lot like the fables known to have been made up by right-wingers. You know, like the fantasy about the man who supposedly was arrested for killing a bear that threatened his family that popped up during the right-wing’s “save our gun rights” hysteria when the idea of tightening the law about background checks and closing loopholes was brought up (and favored by most Americans, including NRA members).

  9. RickA and the right wing fanatics are searching everywhere they can to find any evidence they can that much of the violence and unrest in the US is due to left wing provacateurs. Hotair.com? Is this one of the same right wing sites that Trump uses for his tweets? His latest pathetic attempt to attribute everything bad to Antifa was his remarkable tweet accusing the 75 year-old protestor in Buffalo who was quite clearly shoved by riot police, fell, and hit his head on the pavement, causing a severe head injury, to be a part of an Antifa-staged event.

    Dean posted an article two days ago about how the right wing media is gaslighting Americans and the world by trying to give the impression that what we are seeing with our own eyes isn’t really happening at all. That George Floyd wasn’t really asphyxiated by a policeman bearing his own entire weight on Floyd’s neck through his knee for close to 9 minutes, or that the Buffalo protestor really was not shoved and did not crack his head on the pavement, bleeding through his ear. Trump is selective with what he defines as ‘fake news’. If it is a wacky, far right conspiracy-theory promoting site, then he believes whatever they write.

    As an aside, Trump and his corporate regime are pushing through a massive program of environmental deregulation using the civil unrest and the pandemic as cover. They are eviscerating public constraints to benefit private profit – last week it was further provisions of the Clean air and Water acts, and yesterday it was the opening of protected marine reserves to fishing rights. By the time he and his goons are through, the US will have very little left of nature to protect. The rich will keep supporting Trump as he continues to stuff wads of cash into their pockets, and his ‘base’, whose policies he is really shafting, will continue to support him so long as he gives the impression that deep state forces and the far left are the real enemy and as he uses incendiary rhetoric scapegoating minorities, refugees, immigrants and others for America’s decline. It is a balancing act and Trump is exemplifying it.

    Voting this monster out of office is more important than ever.

  10. Having ignored an FBI briefing on the lack of evidence that antifa was involved in recent disturbances, the Impeached President adopted a conspiracy theory from a right-wing source linked to Russia’s disinformation service.
    = = =
    Excerpts from:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/president-trump-tweets-antifa-conspiracy-theory-originated-anonymous-blog-n1228356

    “President Donald Trump tweeted a conspiracy theory Tuesday about a Buffalo man injured by police that has circulated around fringe, far-right online media in recent days, adding to efforts from the president and other conservatives to cast protesters as part of a shadowy “antifa” movement.

    [Trump’s actual tweet:] ‘Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?’

    “Trump’s claims appeared to have been ripped from a conspiracy theory that aired Tuesday morning on One America News Network, a far-right cable news channel. The theory was originally posted to an anonymous conservative blog.

    “One America News Network claimed that Gugino, an activist from a Buffalo suburb, was using ‘common antifa tactics’ when he was pushed by police. OANN reporter Kristian Rouz said the incident ‘could be the result of a false flag provocation by far-left group antifa.’

    “Rouz claimed that ‘newly released video’ showed Gugino ‘using a police tracker on his phone.’ The video is not newly released — merely slowed down — and it does not show Gugino using a ‘police tracker.’ Rouz called it an ‘old trick used by antifa’ without providing evidence or other examples.

    “Rouz, who previously worked for the Russian state media organization Sputnik, has a record of pushing baseless conspiracy theories on OANN. Last month, Rouz claimed that the coronavirus was a plot for ‘population control’ by George Soros, Bill Gates, Dr. Anthony Fauci, Bill and Hillary Clinton and China.”
    = = =

    Apparently, although himself a man in his seventies, the Impeached President has not learned that one of the effects of age on humans is a loss of hearing acuity and a related loss in the ability to keep balanced. There’s a good reason that old folks are prone to falling. When pushed strongly backwards and trying to keep his balance by striding backward, a man of 75 is more likely than not to overbalance and fall backward. If only someone were to give I.P. Trump such a push he could find that out for himself.

    1. His phone is in camera mode, doubtful he was skimming data off the radios, though he may have been recording settings waving it at them.
      The guys twitter has him bragging about how many times he’s been arrested for his protesting. He was clearly looking to provoke them.

    2. I wondered where that nonsense about “scanning police communications” came from.

      It’s more proof that Trump never asks anybody for advice. I bet his son Bannon could have told him that a handheld phone is incapable of putting out enough power to block anything, even if it had been rejiggered to transmit on police frequencies.

      Trump and the “stable geniuses” at OANN, however, will believe a handheld phone can do anything. What’s next? Will they claim it can be rejiggered to call down lightning on its holder, like some were in Michael Crichton’s novel State of Fear?

    3. Will they claim it can be rejiggered to call down lightning on its holder, like some were in Michael Crichton’s novel State of Fear?

      Possibly. (Stephen King’s Cell is a better book (not by much, as both are mediocre at best), but Crichton was more similar politically to trump than King is.)

  11. The latest article Rick linked to is another hilarious right wing loony site. It starts with, ‘Just as ISIS claimed territory in Iraq and Syria, Antifa has claimed a part of Seattle’.

    Wtf has ISIS got to do with Antifa? Why didn’t they start with US or UK imperialism? After all, both countries illegally invaded Iraq and occupied it… But of course! The attempt was to link Antifa with a terrorist organization that is an officially designated enemy! And no mention of the critical role played by the US in creating ISIS by invading Iraq and deposing the Sunni regime which morphed into the terrorist organization.

    Typical shite journalism, aimed at right wing-nuts like RickA.

  12. ‘He was clearly looking to provoke them’ argues the other right wing-nut who frequently writes in here. So that justifies two combat-fatigued heavily armed policemen in a group of about 30 shoving an elderly man backwards leading him to stumble and crack his head on the pavement. This is neofascist group-think.

    I hate to think what kind of garbage MikeN and RickA will come up with next to support flagrant police violence and brutality. They are clutching at invisible straws. This is how desperate they are, folks.

  13. RickA and MikeN

    Antifa as a movement is a figment of imagination projected onto you by the Trumpster, and his sidekick Barr, both have stepped outside the bounds of Constitutional behaviour. But I guess that you will carry on defending the indefensible in spite of the true picture being assembled from, you know, facts.

    None of 51 individuals facing federal charges in connection with protests in recent weeks has any alleged link to any such conspiracy, according to court documents reviewed by NPR.

    On account of a deference to Trump that has been perceived as excessive, Barr has in the past been embroiled in criticism, for dropping the prosecution of Trump cronies; distorting the findings of Mueller; advancing investigations seemingly designed to harm Trump opponent Joe Biden; defending Trump’s firing of inspectors general and more.

    “He can’t function in the job as the founders intended the job to be done, and he needs to be removed,” said Donald K Sherman, deputy director of the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington watchdog group. “We have seen him literally bend the scales of justice to protect the president’s rich, white, criminal allies, versus what he has done to people who have dared to stand up peacefully against racial injustice in America.”

    Source

  14. His phone is in camera mode, doubtful he was skimming data off the radios, though he may have been recording settings waving it at them.

    Neither of those things is possible.

    The guys twitter has him bragging about how many times he’s been arrested for his protesting. He was clearly looking to provoke them.

    Some people are happy to protest things that need to be changed. Then there are assholes like you and rickA who enjoy seeing minorities, poor, and women, be disadvantaged.

  15. “He’s perhaps a little too old for that sort of thing.”

    Yeah, because doing the right thing is for kids?

    Your comments just through themselves down the toilet.

  16. Re: MikeN “All part of civil disobedience. He’s perhaps a little too old for that sort of thing.”
    =
    1) The accent is on the “civil” which in no way should provoke a violent response. Or are you in favor of a Trumpishj society: dominate or be dominated; eat or be eaten?

    2) I don’t think I ever saw/heard anyone before say that age (and physical weakness) disinfranchises a person in what is supposed to be a democratic society. I suppose that answers my question above if your statement rightly expresses your position.

    1. The civil in ‘civil disobedience’ refers to the person being disobedient.

      I’m saying at his age and health he should be a little more careful about not putting himself in position to get beaten up.

  17. “The civil in ‘civil disobedience’ refers to the person being disobedient.”

    No — there is no universal belief in anything that simplistic.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-disobedience/

    And he didn’t put himself in a position to be beaten up: standing peacefully and being assaulted by an officer isn’t his fault, despite your dishonest attempts to place the blame on him.

    I can’t imagine what it is like to be you or rickA and not have a single bit of concern about anyone other than yourself. What failures as decent people you are.

    1. There are no protesters near him in the video. Was he the only one who showed up, or did the others behave differently?

  18. “There are no protesters near him in the video. Was he the only one who showed up, or did the others behave differently?”

    Don’t know mikeN. I also don’t know why that makes a difference, and I don’t know why his being alone makes it ok for a police officer to assault him simply because he was peaceful.

    But then, unlike you, I’m not a fan of authoritarian overreach (and I’m interested in facts, not your conspiratorial crap.)

    1. The police were moving in a line to clear the area. He decided to stand in their way and wave his phone around in their personal space, rather than back away like everyone else. If he had been in this video, he’d have been bleeding. If they had been in his place, they would not have been bleeding.

    1. John Cardillo is a right wing dork. His Twitter page is a frigging embarrassment. He swoons at every piece of garbage Trump or Pompeo say.

      MikeN, we here know you are stupid, but really… how low do you intend to go?

    2. Identity of person who posted a video is totally irrelevant to my point about this old hippie vs the younger protesters.

  19. “Identity of person who posted a video is totally irrelevant to my point about this old hippie vs the younger protesters.”

    Nope, it is not.

    a) When you cite someone with a long history of lying and claim they are telling the truth — you’re showing your gullibility, nothing more

    b) “Currently hidden writing” — tells anyone with reasoning ability your source is full of crap and you’re clueless

    1. Are you accusing the non-credible poster of posting a fake video?
      If not, then identity is totally irrelevant.

      ‘Currently hidden writing” was referring to my post in moderation. When I said ‘post in moderation’ it got put in moderation.

  20. MikeN, RickA and an army of Trumpards are beyond clueless. Inconvenient facts are ignored by them. I wrote on another thread here that last week Trump signed an executive order effectively repealing large sections of the Clean Air Act, National Environment Policy Act, and Endangered Species Act, in order to supposedly ‘re-energize the economy’ in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic. The truth, is of course, far more sinister. Trump and the corporate shits he has appointed to head the Interior Department (Bernhardt), Bureau of Land Management (Perry-Pendleton), Environmental Protection Agency (Wheeler) and Fish and Wildlife Service (Skipworth) were lobbyists
    or directors for oil, coal, or chemical/pesticide companies before being appointed by the narcissist-in-chief. Trump began eviscerating agencies tasked with protecting America’s National Parks, federal lands, habitats and biodiversity long before the coronavirus pandemic. The scum that head the above agencies were hired to dismantle them, brick by brick, and to turn control of government to corporate interests. Unless Trump and these creeps are stopped, they will undo laws and regulations guarding natural treasures that took a century or more to build and implement, many under Republican administrations. The damage being done by Trump may turn out to be irreparable. The problem is that his cult are effectively clueless, oblivious to facts on the ground, or they don’t give a damn. Which is it Mike? One? The other? Or both?

    When I read bilge from right wing clowns like John Cardillo and his warped followers, I have the urge to hurl. As a scientist, I am working hard to educate my students and the general public as to the scale of the current predicament. Climate change and mass environmental destruction are proceeding at an ever-increasing rate, and we are rapidly rushing headlong into the abyss. It is an uphill battle, as more and more it is becoming clear that the dumbing down of the general population is making it easier for right wing blowhard populists like Trump, Bolsonaro or Johnson to gain support and power using racist, xenophobic, scapegoating rhetoric. At the same time, the people who swoon at everything they say are being literally shafted by these populists, whose sole aim is to further enrich and empower the ruling elites.

    We are living at a critical juncture of history. If Trump, Bolsonaro et al. prevail, then the future is dire.

  21. That MikeN’s arguments have no substance is brilliantly demonstrated:

    Does Trump truly believe that Martin Gugino, the 75-year-old protester shoved to the ground by Buffalo police officers, was an Antifa insurrectionist plotting to block the communications equipment of the officers who shoved him and left him bleeding from the ear? Does the courtly, somewhat hesitant Gugino really look to anyone like a dangerous thug? How could someone have watched that video and floated the idea that the attack on Gugino, still hospitalized with a brain injury, “could be a set-up?”

    The gap between Trump’s world and reality is widening. It’s disturbing to watch

    Great posts, as ever, Jeffh.

    Currently re-reading Grandin and others. The shocking actions of US government agents in Latin America should be put before the American public so that they understand what could happen to them if capitalist fascism gather more power to hide their inhuman and destructive actions.

  22. Donald Lewis in West Palm Beach:
    Police apply knee to back and neck
    He appears to call for his mom at one point
    Calls for help, says he can’t breathe, says he is going to die.
    Official autopsy says “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.”
    The legal team hired Dr. Michael Baden, who testified that Lewis died from “asphyxia caused by neck compression.”
    Dies while he’s in that position.

    One difference is that once he is unconscious, they attempt to get him to a seated position.

    https://youtu.be/GdzpoS8pTks?t=77

    1. Re: MikeN “Official autopsy says ‘sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.'”

      A short but unclear statement that leaves the reader to guess whether the “respiratory arrest” was due to the “struggling” under restraint or to the “cocaine-induced excited delirium”, whether the “struggling” was the cause of or the result of the “restraint.”

      Unless the “respiratory arrest” was due to the “cocaine-induced excited delirium” then the cause of death was the restraint. Whether delirious or not, it is a reflex to struggle when someone (or more than one) is attempting to restrain your movements, especially if part of that restraint involves cutting off your breathing. The onus then is on the restrainer to moderate his behavior so as not to cause more harm than that which the lack of restraint would likely lead. Unfortunately, some police these days seem to be handing out death penalties for offenses for which no death penalty would ever be assigned in a court of law.

  23. MikeN, wtf has this incident got to do with the murder of George Floyd? Donald Lewis was violently resisting the four policemen, all of whom were trying to restrain him. He was clearly highly intoxicated on drugs and and was delirious. When the police put their knees on him, they were applied to his upper back, and for no more than 30 seconds. When Lewis was seen to be non-responsive, the police immediately did everything they could to resuscitate him. There was near panic amongst them.

    Contrast this with Floyd, who offered no resistance. The four policemen did not act together to restrain him, but instead Chauvin kneeled with his full weight on Floyd’s neck for almost nine minutes while the other three did not even watch what Chauvin was doing. It also appears that there was no urgency to revive Floyd after he became unresponsive, in complete contrast with the Lewis incident.

    You must really be. a deep-rooted racist bigot to scrape up this video in an attempt to draw a false correlation. Wtf is wrong with you?

    1. MikeN has a deep-rooted dislike of facts and rational arguments — that’s been demonstrated over years of posts. Always comes down on the side of repression and discrimination too.

    2. JeffH, according to the prosecutor’s charging document, Floyd was resisting arrest. Body cam footage has not been released, but it appears they couldn’t get him to stay in the vehicle once they finally got him in and had to pull him out again.

      You ask what’s the relation? I agree they should have tried to place Floyd in a seated position, and listed that as a key difference.

      How do you know Chauvin applied full weight to Floyd’s neck? At one point in the video, he picks up his head and neck.

      The relation is this delirium state. One of the officers stated this in the video, and I took that as a reason to charge the officers. They understood the health issue but didn’t adjust their behavior.
      However, it seems I was in error. This health issue is a significant factor here. Chauvin says, ‘That’s why I have him on his stomach.’ In other words, two officers had determined or suspected Floyd had a specific health condition.
      See appendix 4 starting on page 45 of the document I will post once I find the link. This document was published by Minneapolis Police Department two years ago. The appendix is by ACEP about excited delirium.
      It says that the safest way to deal with this is to get the subject to stop struggling as fast as possible.
      Chauvin was going by the book, at least initially.

  24. “According to the Prosecutor’s Charging Document”….. enough said.

    So while three policemen stood around twiddling their thumbs, it was left to one rogue, racist, bigoted policeman, Chauvin, to restrain Floyd. The other three were there to ensure that none of the other people witnessing this murder intervened. Several are crying out that Floyd was being suffocated, as Floyd himself pleaded with Chauvin with the now famous words, “I can’t breathe”. All to no avail.

    If Floyd was in a delirium state, and certainly none of the existing videos of the initial interactions with police hint at that even remotely, then why was it left to Chauvin to place his full weight on Floyd’s neck while his three incompetent colleagues did diddly squat? Lewis was thrashing around with four policemen trying to restrain him. With Floyd, Chauvin’s three useless colleagues were too busy trying to prevent the public from intervening.

    Your nauseating, right wing screeds cannot hide the truth. Chauvin did not just have him on his stomach. He had his full weight via his knee on Floyd’s neck. Anyone with half a brain can see that. Chauvin was leaning forward where his full body mass was channeled through his knee. He can try all he likes to claim he was following the book but anyone who sees the photos or videos will ask, “What book”?

    This is negligent homicide by a police officer with a sordid history. He should have been booted out of the force years ago. Clearly police forces around the U.S. need to clean house and cleanse them of the detritus that has accumulated among many of their officers.

  25. Floyd was murdered by Chauvin. You can try to excuse a racist, bigoted policeman with a history of violence all you like, MikeN, but the video and photographic evidence speaks for itself. Floyd became physically unresponsive 6 minutes after Chauvin applied his knee to his neck. He stopped breathing, but Chauvin’s knee remained on Floyd’s neck for another three minutes. The four policemen did nothing. Civilians there shouted that Chauvin was killing him and their pleas were ignored. Floyd pleaded with Chauvin with the now famous words, “I can’t breathe”. To no avail. The policemen ignored him.

    The only reason you try to excuse a clear case of negligent homicide MikeN is because you are a right wing bigot yourself. Most of the civilized world can see with their own two eyes the institutionalized racism in the United States that is especially visible among many police forces. As has been pointed out numerous times, the political right are gaslighting in an attempt to hide the ugly truth. Vile right wing groups are exploiting the Floyd murder for their own nefarious ends. It seems that the neofascists are about the only ones left denying what the rest of us can see.

    One of the most ironic things that is hard to understand is why people like you and RickA – average Joe’s – support a political Party and system that is literally shafting you. You both remind me of a frustrated denier who, when simple facts are presented to them, goes into a tantrum and tries to shout down their opponent. You both believe the opposite of everything is true.

    1. MikeN:

      Very interesting. I can certainly see how some of these facts could be used to defend the four officers, and especially Chauvin. It will be interesting to see all the body cam footage once it is released.

    2. Hi Mike,

      “I’m interested in getting Joseph’s take on this”

      OK, you’ve laid down the gauntlet and although I’ve commented at considerable length on this earlier, I will pick it up; It might take me a few days, though, and there will no doubt be intervening replies – so please monitor this page and I’ll do my very best to respond.

      Cheers,
      Joe

    3. Thanks Joe. I’ve read your long replies earlier(usually sign of trolls to skip, but yours were quite informative).

  26. Abominable article, cheered on by a racist mob of caucasians. The question that needs to be answered is: would George Floyd have died that day if Derek Chauvin had not restrained him with his knee on Floyd’s neck for 9 minutes? Or is Floyd’s death and Chauvin’s knee just a remarkable coincidence? The answer is obvious. This is like saying that police who roughly restrain a suspect who then dies of a heart attack are innocent because the victim had a bad heart condition. Where do you draw the line?

    Again, risible article. The writer tries – and fails miserably – to explain away remarkable coincidences of African-Americans dying while being restrained by policemen.

    Chauvin is guilty of negligent homicide at the very least. He should go to prison for awhile. Correct decision.

    1. Very interesting. I can certainly see how some of these facts could be used to defend the four officers, and especially Chauvin. It will be interesting to see all the body cam footage once it is released.

      Rather disgusting how you hard core racists twist facts in the hope of getting killers off.

  27. I just watched the video again. It is sickening. Civilians beg Chauvin to get off of Floyd’s neck but Chauvin clearly enjoys it, looking down at Floyd with contempt several times. It is clear that Floyd isn’t responding 6 minutes after Chauvin puts his knee on his neck – civilians are shouting this at Chauvin, but he ignores them. By then Floyd is already dead.

    Chauvin had at least 12 official complaints against him for excessive violence before he murdered Floyd. The two men had a history, and the knee was Chauvin’s act of getting even. The Minneapolis Police Force has a terrible reputation. It is clearly time to clean house. Chauvin will never wear a badge again, which is a relief. However, if a jury acquits him, there will be repercussions across the United States. Racist, right wing morons like RickA and MikeN appear to defend police violence, but no amount of gaslighting can hide the ugly truth.

  28. “According to the Prosecutor’s Charging Document”….. enough said.

    While I’m OK with not believing prosecutor’s statements, considering the prosecutors are trying to place Floyd in prison, this is a statement against their interest.

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