Suicide (and sometimes murder) on the Gun Range

Sometimes, a person shows up at a gun range, checks out a gun ostensibly to use in target practice on the range, but instead uses the gun to commit suicide. In one case not long ago, a woman brought her teenage son to the range, and checked out two pistols. They took turn shooting for a while, then, while he was aiming his firearm at the target, she shot him in the back of the head and then shot herself. So that was murder-suicide. Now and then a person goes to the shooting range, and while shooting end up shooting themselves dead but it is not clear if it was an accident or suicide.

A quick search of google reveals a number of cases like this reported in the news. I’ve put links to and excerpts from a handful of them below. Did you know this was a thing? Apparently it is.

2009 August

CASSELBERRY, Fla. — A central Florida woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range wrote in suicide notes to her boyfriend that she was trying to save her son.
“I’m so sorry,” Marie Moore wrote several times. “I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell.” … She signed two of the notes “Failed Queen.”

2010 October

A Weston man shot and killed himself Friday morning at the Arizona Shooting Range in Lauderdale Lakes, leaving behind a suicide note, authorities said.

The Broward Sheriff’s Office identified the victim as a 47-year-old Weston man, but did not release his name.

The suicide occurred at about 10:45 a.m. at 4325 North State Road 7, said Veda Coleman, a spokeswoman for the sheriff’s office.

“He shot himself there at the gun range,” Coleman said. “He did leave behind a note.”

2010 November

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — A photocopy of a magazine cover about the Columbine school shooting was found among the belongings of Australian twin sisters who shot themselves in a suicide pact at a Colorado shooting range, authorities said Friday.

However, it remained unclear why Kristin and Candice Hermeler, both 29, had the cover of Time headlined “The Monsters Next Door/What Made Them Do It?” and why the sisters made the plan to kill themselves, authorities said. One of the women survived.

2012 February

A 52-year-old Tamarac man killed himself Saturday morning at a Broward shooting range, according to a Broward’s Sheriff’s Office release. When police went to notify his wife at home, they found her dead in a possible murder-suicide.

Police report that the man rented a gun at the Arizona Shooting Range & Emporium in Lauderdale Lakes at 10:18 a.m. He then went into the target-shooting area and shot himself in the head at 10:33 a.m., according to the release.

2012 July

COLONIAL HEIGHTS, Va. (WTVR)–The owner of The Smoking Gun pistol range didn’t want to appear on TV, but he did want to set the record straight about the suicide inside his business five days ago.

It began with the sound of gunshots inside a shooting range. It’s safe to say it’s common to hear that sound there, but a shot last week still haunts the range owner. “I yelled, ‘Lieutenant!” he said. “’You have five minutes,’ but he didn’t acknowledge me.”… Second Lieutenant James Cho, an Army Reserve officer was dead. The gunshot wound to the head was later determined to be a suicide. The Smoking Gun’s owner says Cho was in a position that he’ll never forget

2012 November

KENT COUNTY, MI – As family of Mark Sobie grieve his death after a self-inflicted gunshot wound last week at a Wyoming shooting range, they question why no laws prevented him from renting a firearm.

A background check, they say, would have shown the 43-year-old’s felony bank robbery conviction, an offense that led him to serve 30 months in federal prison. The criminal record prevents him from purchasing or possessing a gun.

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72 thoughts on “Suicide (and sometimes murder) on the Gun Range

  1. I do like going to the gun range, but I would really like to just see them stop providing firearms. I am not sure if the one near me does, but it seems like the loophole of loopholes for crazies.

    1. The reason I took my wife to the indoor pistol range (I go to the free outdoor range) here is so we could rent several 380’s and 9 mm for her to try for carry purposes. She can shoot about anything, but we were looking for a “fit” (she does have small hands) , her job put her in an area where two bodies have been found in the parking lot and the nature of her employment created a certain level of risk.

  2. Six cases in four years doesn’t make an epidemic; more people kill themselves with drain cleaner or jumping off buildings. Certainly, it’s not ethical to commit suicide in public and cause trouble for other people. But if you are determined to kill yourself and don’t own a gun, doing it with a rental gun will cause far less harm to others than deliberately getting yourself killed in a traffic “accident” or setting up a good cop to shoot you, both of which are things that people seem to do more than twice a year – and it’s a lot easier on you than the drain cleaner.
    I don’t see what your point is here. Do you mean to suggest that this handful of people would not have killed themselves if we did not have manned shooting ranges that rent guns (which are for many the only way to learn to shoot before buying a gun, as some people think should be a requirement)? These suicides, though sometimes obviously due to mental illness, were considered and preplanned. I would assume that if there had been no gun range, these unhappy people would probably have killed themselves anyway, perhaps by a much messier method. Japan is one of the most disarmed countries on earth and their suicide rate is far higher than ours.

  3. Felons are prohibited from purchasing a firearm. True. What keps them from breaking in and stealing one?

    Background checks are important, but a felon will not walk into a gun store and try to buy a gun. That would be stupid. instead he has multiple options:

    1) steal a gun from a gun owner. Now that we have newspapers listed them all, he has many choices of wehere he can now obtain one.

    2) He can buy from an individual. One individual selling a product to another indivdual is not illegal. Though I agree that the seller should at least know some history on the guy first.

    3) The felon can go into mexico and buy all the guns he wants cheaper than here and simply walk back into the states with them. it’s not like the border is actually guarded or anhthing. Most of the guns in mexico are TRUE assault rifles – full auto – mostly coming from Nicaruago who got them from Russi and Iran. The rest, the Obama administration gave them for free – sort of like the free grenades, machine guns, and should fired missles the CIA gives to terrorists in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya. ban guns for american patriots, but give full military hardware to out enemies. Smart, mr. President.Very smart. Makes me wonder if that muslim president conspiracy theory realis a thery or not. Seems like he supports them more than his own people sometimes.

  4. I’m from Nevada and it is easy to get a gun here. Most of my friends have guns and five of them have died with their own guns. There were two suicides, two accidents and one was murdered by her husband. No one that I know has used one for self defense at home. The thing is, I would say that 99.9% of the time drain cleaners and buildings are used for something useful. The guns in question are only used to kill things,often people. If we need a safe humane way to let people commit suicide I would rather look to Dr. Kevorkian. Japan also has far fewer acts of gun violence against _other_ people and we can also get drugs from south of the border but we actually have laws against that.

    Also, the U.S. still remains the largest gun exporter on the planet.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/worlds-largest-weapons-ex_b_1131202.html

  5. hobgot – The number of accidental firearms deaths per year in the U.S. is in the hundreds, in a population of over 300 million people. If two of your friends have accidentally killed themselves with firearms, you have a statistically much dumber or clumsier than average group of friends. And when you claim that their guns “are only used to kill things, often people,” I wonder whether they would agree that that’s a fair assessment, or that using guns to “kill things” in hunting is not a “useful” purpose.

  6. hobgot – I’ve run into this mem of the US being the largest exporter of guns before. The first time I saw it I knew it coudn’t be true, becouse the number one most common gun in the world is the AK-47 (or a clone) and they arn’t made in the US.
    I went ahead and read the Huffpo article you linked to and right under the pie graph showing how much weapons each country exports (in dollars) it lists the companies that have the highest sales. they were Lockheed Martin, BAE systems, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, and Raytheon.
    These are not gun manufacturers, the make jet fighters, bombers, tanks, APCs, and other war fighting machines. Not only are they not in the business of selling pistols or rifles, but the weapons they do sell, like F22’s and M1A3 Abrams’ can only be sold to the governments that the US governments says they can be sold to.

  7. Jane, I’ll concede your point about long rifles & shotguns having a legitimate purpose, but how do you justify assault rifles & handguns? They are specifically designed for easily killing & maiming humans, and nothing else.

    1. I carry my pistol on my hip everyday , just in case. I have shown I was armed a few times to stop potentially criminal intent in its tracks, or immediate veer off as with one guy who shadowed me coming out of a store and all the way to my van, he angled my way as I approached my van. he would have gotten to me about the time I unlocked the door. I reached up on the van exposing the .40 on my hip and he totally changed course and quickened his pace. That kind of thing happens an estimated 2 million times a year …no actual threat could be claimed, no crime occurred. I didn’t get robbed and injured and I didn’t have to decide to kill someone. Maybe he will think better of whatever and not victimize someone less prepared later. 1 in 5 people here have conceal carry permits and open carry can be seen daily. the .223 sporting rifles are good for small game up to coyote size … perfect for marmots.

  8. Schitzree — you make a very good point about needing to define “gun”. On the other hand, AK-47 being the most popular gun doesn’t necessarily contradict the claim since the most popular thing of any category doesn’t have to represent a majority. Totally off the top of my head and without having figures of any kind, I’d be willing to put money on Russia being the world’s largest arms exporter, though.

  9. Artor – Not true. Handguns are carried by some people in rural areas as a portable form of defense against dangerous animals. They are also a portable, or at home less cumbersome, form of defense against dangerous humans. Their efficacy for that purpose depends on at least the threat of deadly force, so you can describe that as being “for killing and maiming humans” – however, whether it is acceptable to kill or maim a would-be rapist or murderer is a value judgement on which my mind is pretty well made up.

    As for “assault rifles”, these have been defined by cosmetic features which, as you say, are not necessary for hunting, but also don’t add to the deadliness of the gun. In fact, ironically, primarily military calibers are often underpowered relative to large-game rifles and less likely to kill a human. You see, in warfare killing a soldier removes one man from the battlefield, whereas wounding him removes both him and a couple of others who have to go to his aid and carry him away, so the designers of these weapons consider it desirable to wound as many as possible. For hunting large animals, that’s precisely what you don’t want to do, so such weapons are inferior.

  10. AK-47 design is not covered by copyright, anyone in the world can print them up and produce them, that’s why there’s a lot of them. The US is the largest single exporter of firearms, that claim is correct.

  11. The data is not at all ambiguous, firearms are definitely a public health hazard that cause far more harm than good, and owning a gun is a really good way to get shot. But there is no point arguing with gun-cultists anymore than you would argue with a creationist (for the most part they are the same people actually). These are people who don’t believe in evidence-based reasoning to begin with and there’s a direct correlation between firearm ownership and lower levels of education and intelligent levels. The best strategy for dealing with people like Jane is to keep donating to gun control groups and pressuring your reps and just ram the legislation down their throat.

  12. i cant stand this anymore. why even try to tell you how bad my life is. i hear about so many kids getting bullied and it is a big deal but i wish i only got bullied instead of everything else. i suffer from extreme depression and i am going to suicide. i don’t give a fuck what you guys are going to say because i probably wont live long enough to see your. comments

    1. You also didn’t leave any other way to contact you all you may get are comments. I’ll just say this. 99.99% of people under the age of about 45 who get very serious about suicide but end up not doing it are glad they did not do it, and later feel that having done it would have been a mistake.

  13. While it is true that there is a lot of stuff that people have to go through, fighting depression alone doesn’t have to be one of them. As an anonymous comment on a blog, I would hope that making this here would mean there is a little spark of consciousness that will lead you back to read the comments. There are so very many people who have been at that very point – and not because of bullying. (Though maybe bullying is *included* in my own experience, though certainly not the only thing that was inducing the thoughts.) Depression is a manipulative and lying shitstain. It is invisible to other people, and makes them ignore the pain. That seems to cause a circle effect, causing a person suffering to shame themselves for feeling the pain. The disorder is real, and it can be treated. I have no idea where you live. Where I am, I found an organization that based my treatment on a sliding scale – when I was making $7.25/hour. I would urge you to take whatever small moment of active motivation you have to do something to yourself, and instead try to turn it to entering some search terms in a search engine for your area. I don’t know how isolated you are, but if you know anyone at all, online or in person, reach out to talk to them. Even if you think you will hate reading/listening. It will help a little. And take care of yourself as if you are someone you have no reason to hate. Think of someone on a bus who you don’t know. You wouldn’t say the things you say to yourself to them. Try to treat yourself AT LEAST as good as that. And maybe come back and leave contact info.

  14. Hi unknown,
    I too have suffered from severe depression and attempted suicide several times. I am so thankful I didn’t succeed. Greg is right. Your in too dark of a place to see it right now but this feeling will change.

    I’m listening.

  15. Unknown,
    I, too, have suffered from suicidal thoughts. I have struggled with it since childhood. I’ve even come close to committing suicide. I am glad I didn’t. Working through depression and other mental health issues is very hard work, but it can improve quality of life.
    Please hang on.

  16. For those who suffer from depression, bi-polar, insomnia, OCD, etc., and especially those considering suicide:

    Read up on
    5-hydroxy-tryptophan (5-HTP)

    It’s a non-synthetic nutritional supplement that re-balances the neurotransmitters in your brain and normalizes mood, ending mood swings and “bleak, black thoughts”.

    It has no side-effects (like those that mood-enhancing drugs are famous for).

    Tryptophan & 5-HTP are the only two precursors for making serotonin, the “brake fluid” for your neurons — without which you cannot stop depressive or obsessive thoughts. (“Willpower” is pressing the brake pedal, but nothing useful happens if there’s no brake fluid.)

    You can find it in most big-name pharmacies in the vitamin section. You do not have to live with this condition, and killing yourself is NOT the solution.

  17. Unknown, you don’t have to go through this alone. Follow the link that Kara provided, please. Like Pyra said, treatment doesn’t have to be expensive.

  18. Unknown,
    First I’d like to say if you want to talk you can hit me up on twitter. Refer me to this post and I will follow you and we can DM as long as you need. I’ve lived with suicidal ideations since I was a preteen and even recently deal with depression that has left me curled crying in the bathroom holding a kitchen knife. I don’t have perfect words but I can try. I can’t guarantee that the troubles in life that have brought you to this point will get better. I can say that if you give it time, it is likely your ability to handle them may improve. Think of it like trying to quit an addiction. Try and talk yourself into one more day or through the next few hours. Remember it is ok to want to die. Sometimes living sucks more than we can bear, but I would like for you to keep bearing the burden that is life. Maybe it is presumptuous of me to make that request but I am making it nonetheless and the only thing I can offer in return is an anonymous ear and warm thoughts for your safety.

  19. This seems to be a statistically meaningless issue.

    Anyway, people have the right to end their lives at the moment of their choice. Get over it.

  20. PavePusher, one of the largest categories of gun deaths in the US is young people using guns to kill themselves. When these young people attempt suicide but fail, it is typical for them to get help that gets them through that part of their lives and they live. When a young person considers suicide with the various methods that are out there, and choses to use a gun, the suicide usually works. Other methods tend to fail frequently. So the difference is, with guns a death that could very likely have been avoided happens.

    So, no, I won’t get over it. Do you know who else is not going to get over it? All those people who managed to survive a suicidal period. Do you know who else is not going to get over it? The family and friends of those young folks who killed themselves with a gun. It would be fair for all of those individuals, collectively, to think of you as something of a monster with this attitude you have.

    Perhaps you didn’t know these facts. Now you do.

  21. “When a young person considers suicide with the various methods that are out there, and choses to use a gun, the suicide usually works.”

    Or worse, as with a friend of mine years ago, they attempt suicide with a gun and fail.

    I can tell you without equivocation, the results of a failed gun suicide are horribly, tragically awful.

  22. “… one of the largest categories of gun deaths in the US is young people using guns to kill themselves.”

    Yes, I knew this. But the portion of such suicides done a shooting ranges is statistically insignificant. And if saving lives is your primary concern (instead of your patent anti-gun agenda), you’d be pushing for better mental health care, and firearms safety training in schools, along-side drivers training and sex ed.

    Should you remove one method from people, they will simply transfer their efforts to other methods. Otherwise, Japan wouldn’t have several times out suicide rate, with almost no civilian firearms ownership, and practically no firearms suicides.

    Someone in the comments suggested ending firearms rentals at ranges. This is self-defeating as well. No-one would buy a car without a test-drive. Similarly, trying out firearms prior to purchase is essential. Which means, usually, rental firearms, as the economics of test-guns is slightly different than for test cars. People buying unfamiliar firearms would likely have a higher accidental death rate, however.

    Lastly, I’m not a monster, I’m a realist. I don’t let emotion cloud my judgment if I can at all avoid it. If that troubles you, and causes you to resort to insults and name-calling, I am not the one with a problem. (For the record, I’ve had friends and co-workers commit suicide, so I’m not immune to the phenomenon.)

  23. Firearms safety is important, but training in it is limited in reducing suicides. The main part of safety that would impact this is getting those gun nuts with their loaded guns sitting next to their beds on their nightstands, dreaming of an opportunity to kill an intruder, to unload and lock up. Which they won’t do.

    Comparing Japan to the US is absurd, given that the two cultures have utterly different attitudes about and methods for suicide. The comparison simply isn’t valid.

    I’m sorry you don’t have emotions about the increased rate of killings and mayhem because of firearms being so easy to get, and because firearm “rights” are feithized by so many in our society. There are some of us who are very very pissed off about this. We are not going away. We might, however, take away your guns if you keep being so stupid about this.

    1. I didn’t say I have no emotions. I said I don’t let them obstruct my ability to reason.

      Please don’t make things up about me.

      And you will not take my guns. You might send minions to try to do so, but your kind will never volunteer to do the deed yourselves.

  24. That kind of thing happens an estimated 2 million times a year

    No Thom, it does not. That is the claim made by the right, but there is no data that backs it up and

    1. Yes and no.

      “That is the claim made by the right, but there is no data that backs it up”

      There sure is but gun haters do not want to bother.

  25. When a gun lover explains how good and useful guns are, they typically don’t mention the large number of drawbacks to guns and shooting in general. Here are a few.

    *The increased chance of blowing your nuts off or accidentally hurting innocent people.
    *The slightly increased chance of giving yourself cancer by frequent exposure to gun cleaning solvents and nitrated gun residues.
    *The greatly increased risk of hearing loss and tinnitus. Ah tinnitus, that ever present ringing that will makes you feel like you’ve had your bell rung for the rest of your life!
    *The high likelihood of overexposure to toxic lead compounds with the resulting risks of various levels such as
    1) Damage to the frontal lobes of the brain , resulting in diminishing impulse control as well as damage to the rest of the nervous system, with the result that you can have a slightly higher chance of committing suicide or murder or both.
    2) Damage to the reproductive system and, for women, greatly increased chance of birth defects in their offspring.
    3) Damage to other important organs of the body such as… well all of them. Think higher blood pressure, kidney damage, stuff like that.
    *The slight chance that you will lose your gun through theft or carelessness, and that it will fall into criminal hands and be used to commit a crime. Possibly against you.
    *The very high likelihood that you will limit your choice of friends, acquaintances, and possible partners by getting yourself labeled as a gun lover and a potentially overbearing and coercive person, and therefore, potentially unstable and potentially a risk to be around. But don’t worry. Other guns lovers will still love you!
    *The slight but real chance that a cop will mistake you for a criminal or crazy person because of your gun and will react inappropriately to you.
    *The increased risk ( depending on your mental stability ) that if somebody insults you or acts threateningly to you, that you will escalate what might have been a relatively benign incident into a murder. Of course, since you are a shooter, and have had lots of lead exposure, your mental stability will most likely be slowly eroding all the time.
    *The very great risk that by advocating for free access to weapons, that you will help escalate the personal arms race to the point where you might even be able to help to convert society from a peaceable place where people can enjoy life, into an uptight, anti-cerebral, over-armed war zone that most people basically won’t want to live in. Gun lovers paradise.

    1. “When a gun lover explains how good and useful guns are, they typically don’t mention the large number of drawbacks to guns and shooting in general.”

      ** Just like most things in life.

      “The increased chance of blowing your nuts off”

      ** Sterilizes your opponent

      “The slightly increased chance of giving yourself cancer by frequent exposure to gun cleaning solvents and nitrated gun residues.”

      ** Have you heard of rubber gloves and organic cleaners?

      “The greatly increased risk of hearing loss and tinnitus. Ah tinnitus, that ever present ringing that will makes you feel like you’ve had your bell rung for the rest of your life!”

      ** The Mohammad Ali effect? Ear plugs or covers – Don’t you
      use protection?

      “The high likelihood of overexposure to toxic lead compounds with the resulting risks of various levels”

      ** This is true for the various bugs that live on the firing range.

      “1) Damage to the frontal lobes of the brain , resulting in diminishing impulse control as well as damage to the rest of the nervous system, with the result that you can have a slightly higher chance of committing suicide or murder or both.”

      ** Gun owners have a lower crime rate than that of the general public, including the two acts mentioned. Gun haters have large amygdala,
      which diminish reasoning.

      “2) Damage to the reproductive system and, for women, greatly increased chance of birth defects in their offspring.”

      ** This will reduce both gun ownership and usage. Certainly a plus
      for gun alarmists.

      “3) Damage to other important organs of the body such as… well all of them. Think higher blood pressure, kidney damage, stuff like that.”

      ** More recipients for state aid. Future class action suits for greedy
      lawyers.

      “The slight chance that you will lose your gun through theft or carelessness, and that it will fall into criminal hands and be used to commit a crime. Possibly against you.”

      ** We lose things all the time. You lost your argument with such a careless
      defence.

      “The very high likelihood that you will limit your choice of friends, acquaintances, and possible partners by getting yourself labeled as a gun lover and a potentially overbearing and coercive person, and therefore, potentially unstable and potentially a risk to be around. But don’t worry. Other guns lovers will still love you!”

      ** Your amygdala is in high gear, just like your “partners.” I did find a copy
      of Harry Potter’s Gun Hogwarts Mystery – would you like it? Great fantasy for those who want to escape the real world (no gun violence).

      “The slight but real chance that a cop will mistake you for a criminal or crazy person because of your gun and will react inappropriately to you.”

      ** Please, join the Fantasy Book Club of Month (endorsed by Dave Hogger).
      Reading these subjects will bring your frontal lobes back into organic equilibrium.

      “The increased risk ( depending on your mental stability ) that if somebody insults you or acts threateningly to you, that you will escalate what might have been a relatively benign incident into a murder. Of course, since you are a shooter, and have had lots of lead exposure, your mental stability will most likely be slowly eroding all the time.”

      ** What you describes falls upon illegal or undocumented gun owners. They
      fully support your irrational point because they too will never give up
      their guns, so they can serve them up to you. Your mental stability will
      offer you a strong defence.

      “The very great risk that by advocating for free access to weapons, that you will help escalate the personal arms race to the point where you might even be able to help to convert society from a peaceable place where people can enjoy life, into an uptight, anti-cerebral, over-armed war zone that most people basically won’t want to live in. Gun lovers paradise.”

      ** Remember, the number one killer of humans are not guns but your friends know as government.

      I will give up my guns if you offer to protect me and my family. I will even
      give you one of my front lobes (left side only).

      Can you also stop the use of guns on TV and Hollywood? Will they
      give up their armed security details?

      Got to go – active shooter on Elm St, two down.

  26. Reply to Billyr from SteveP on COMMENTS WITH REPLY FROM BILLYR

    “When a gun lover explains how good and useful guns are, they typically don’t mention the large number of drawbacks to guns and shooting in general.”
    ** Just like most things in life. //// Well good. You see that things aren’t all simple.
    “The increased chance of blowing your nuts off”
    ** Sterilizes your opponent //// Your nuts are your opponent, BillyR? I would tend to agree.
    “The slightly increased chance of giving yourself cancer by frequent exposure to gun cleaning solvents and nitrated gun residues.”
    ** Have you heard of rubber gloves and organic cleaners? //// Having worked with far more hazardous materials than gun cleaners for many decades, I have to say yes, I have heard of rubber gloves. Have you ever heard of a science called, now wait for this, Organic Chemistry? Nitrobenzene is organic, sport. And carcinogenic. You might want to clarify WTF you are talking about.
    “The greatly increased risk of hearing loss and tinnitus. Ah tinnitus, that ever present ringing that will makes you feel like you’ve had your bell rung for the rest of your life!”
    ** The Mohammad Ali effect? Ear plugs or covers – Don’t you use protection? /// What? Can’t hear you. When I was a shooter, nobody wore ear plugs. Unheard of.
    “The high likelihood of overexposure to toxic lead compounds with the resulting risks of various levels”
    ** This is true for the various bugs that live on the firing range. //// There are bugs and dogs and foxes around Chernobyl. Your point is what exactly? The gun and ammo manufacturers and their pimps, the NRA, make a very, very big point of underplaying the effects of lead exposure. All shooters have elevated blood lead levels. The more you shoot, the higher it is likely to be. Look at Ted Nugent if you want to see how a high blood lead level can make you mad as a hatter. And bugs don’t have the same dose response reactions to lead that humans have. Try again.
    “1) Damage to the frontal lobes of the brain , resulting in diminishing impulse control as well as damage to the rest of the nervous system, with the result that you can have a slightly higher chance of committing suicide or murder or both.”
    ** Gun owners have a lower crime rate than that of the general public, including the two acts mentioned. Gun haters have large amygdala, which diminish reasoning. //// Uh, that is misleading. Another way to look at this is that essentially all gun crimes are committed by gun owners, with very few exceptions! Do your statistics account for stolen and unregistered guns? Probably not. Another way to look at this is that essentially all of our recent mass shootings have been committed by gun lovers and gun owners. Joseph DeAngelo is a gun lover. Essentially all suicides by gun are committed by gun holders. And you have the amygdala facts all fucked up! Probably been reading that NRA (National Russian Assets) propaganda again. Or listening to a science like giant Alex Jones. Actually, it is conservatives who tend to have the larger amygdala, BillyR. Look it up.
    “2) Damage to the reproductive system and, for women, greatly increased chance of birth defects in their offspring.”
    ** This will reduce both gun ownership and usage. Certainly a plus
    for gun alarmists. //// You are projecting your world view here, BillyR. Not everyone sees the rest of humanity as a target. Not everybody sees the despair and suffering of others as a “plus”.
    “3) Damage to other important organs of the body such as… well all of them. Think higher blood pressure, kidney damage, stuff like that.”
    ** More recipients for state aid. Future class action suits for greedy
    lawyers. //// Well this reply is just out and out weak, BillyR. See my response to 2) above.
    “The slight chance that you will lose your gun through theft or carelessness, and that it will fall into criminal hands and be used to commit a crime. Possibly against you.”
    ** We lose things all the time. You lost your argument with such a careless
    defence. //// Yes. Gun owners lose things all the time, and YOU lost the argument here BillyR on that point. And defense is spelled with an s, not a c. Just for future reference.
    “The very high likelihood that you will limit your choice of friends, acquaintances, and possible partners by getting yourself labeled as a gun lover and a potentially overbearing and coercive person, and therefore, potentially unstable and potentially a risk to be around. But don’t worry. Other guns lovers will still love you!”
    ** Your amygdala is in high gear, just like your “partners.” I did find a copy
    of Harry Potter’s Gun Hogwarts Mystery – would you like it? Great fantasy for those who want to escape the real world (no gun violence). //// You remember the expression , “ I’m rubber, your glue. It bounces off me and sticks to you, BillyR. What you are doing has a name. In psychology, it is called “projecting”. It is when you accuse another person behavior that you are exhibiting.
    “The slight but real chance that a cop will mistake you for a criminal or crazy person because of your gun and will react inappropriately to you.”
    ** Please, join the Fantasy Book Club of Month (endorsed by Dave Hogger).
    Reading these subjects will bring your frontal lobes back into organic equilibrium. /// Okay. Sure. After you read Casarett and Doull’s “Toxicology” and a good, recent introductory text on Physiological Psychology.
    “The increased risk ( depending on your mental stability ) that if somebody insults you or acts threateningly to you, that you will escalate what might have been a relatively benign incident into a murder. Of course, since you are a shooter, and have had lots of lead exposure, your mental stability will most likely be slowly eroding all the time.”
    ** What you describes falls upon illegal or undocumented gun owners. They
    fully support your irrational point because they too will never give up
    their guns, so they can serve them up to you. Your mental stability will
    offer you a strong defence. //// Did I ever threaten to take your gun away? No. You did a complete knee jerk on that. And defense is spelled with an “s”. You ASSumed I want to take your gun away. Do you ASSume that there are no humans in the bushes behind a deer when you shoot at it? Do you think that your buddy Travis Reinking should have had access to guns? Do you think his father should go to jail for letting an obviously seriously disturbed individual have access to guns? These are interesting questions to think about.
    “The very great risk that by advocating for free access to weapons, that you will help escalate the personal arms race to the point where you might even be able to help to convert society from a peaceable place where people can enjoy life, into an uptight, anti-cerebral, over-armed war zone that most people basically won’t want to live in. Gun lovers paradise.”
    ** Remember, the number one killer of humans are not guns but your friends know as government. //// You too can fend off the world’s strongest military with an AR-15 knock off and a few ammo boxes full of my new super bullets. Is that what your fantasy is BillyR? BTW, I consider people who are in league with the Russians to be,in general, traitors to the USA. I guess if you are an NRA type that might include you.
    I will give up my guns if you offer to protect me and my family. I will even
    give you one of my front lobes (left side only). //// Uh, you can do what you want with your guns. If you live in an area where guns are needed for daily protection, and/or if your family doesn’t have the foresight to take common sense precautions to obviate the need for guns, then by all means have guns in your house. Using guns as a panacea to cover all the holes in a sorry ass world view so you can live in a fantasy world somewhere between the stone age and the early industrial revolution is your choice.
    Can you also stop the use of guns on TV and Hollywood? Will they
    give up their armed security details? //// Take a deep breath. Don’t cry.
    Got to go – active shooter on Elm St, two down. //// More fantasy? Have a good day.

  27. Got to go – active shooter on Elm St, two down.

    So you don’t have any intelligent response to make — your long post could have been written by a poorly programmed bot — eh billyR? When did you decide to give up the ability to think and understand reality?

  28. “So you don’t have any intelligent response to make — your long post could have been written by a poorly programmed bot — eh billyR? When did you decide to give up the ability to think and understand reality?”

    You did not address my reply, other than quoting from
    another post. eh?

    There are ten of thousand defensive use with handguns but
    your replies are just dismissive.

    We can have an intelligent debate, however, it would not
    serve your myotic agenda. eh?

    Either enjoin the conservation or go about your miscellaneous
    way.

    1
  29. In our country, we let the people with the highest blood lead levels (BLL) manipulate the subtle machinations of government through the coercive power of the NRA, an organization which, BTW, has been used to funnel Russian money into our political arena.

    Russia, in case you aren’t aware of it, is our adversary.

    A scientific discussion of guns would have to include a lot of statistics , something that the NRA has repeatedly stymied by interfering with the collection of information on things like gun violence, and especially things like the restriction of the collection and use of information on gun shops that chronically supply felons!!!! Effing stupid Aholes!!!

    The scientific discussion of guns would also have to include a lot of discussion of culture and cultural values. A culture which values allowing idiots, maniacs, and psychopaths to use firearms to turn people, animals, and other people’s property into piles of shit would be termed a dehumanizing, destructive, and essentially stupid one. That is a different type of culture from a vibrant, productive, intelligent one.

    The scientific discussion of guns would also have to include a discussion about how hormones effect behavior, and how the possession of guns affects the level of hormones in humans.

    The scientific discussion of guns would also require a lot of mathematics and game theory to describe the effects of saturating a society with powerful, efficient, but essentially unstable and dangerous murder weapons, and what an escalating arms race in such a society will result in.

    We may, however, soon be beyond the point of a scientific discussion of guns, and well on the way to anomie, something that the Russians would just love to see in their greatest adversary, the United States of America.

    1. “In our country, we let the people with the highest blood lead levels (BLL) manipulate the subtle machinations of government through the coercive power of the NRA, an organization which, BTW, has been used to funnel Russian money into our political arena.”

      Can you cite that the NRA used foreign money (USSR) into America’s body
      politics?? I suspect you are full of it.

      “A scientific discussion of guns would have to include a lot of statistics , something that the NRA has repeatedly stymied by interfering with the collection of information on things like gun violence, and especially things like the restriction of the collection and use of information on gun shops that chronically supply felons!!!! Effing stupid Aholes!!!”

      Can you once again give a cite??? How about a cite that federal licensed
      gun shops supplied felons? If you are referring to firearms, you are
      once again full of hyperbolt.

      “The scientific discussion of guns would also have to include a lot of discussion of culture and cultural values. A culture which values allowing idiots, maniacs, and psychopaths to use firearms to turn people, animals, and other people’s property into piles of shit would be termed a dehumanizing, destructive, and essentially stupid one. That is a different type of culture from a vibrant, productive, intelligent one.”

      More hysteria from you, as your statements are nothing more than
      hot air and completely unfounded. Legal gun owners are statistically
      more law abiding than your average American. Psychopaths are not
      allowed ownership and most gun crimes are committed by leftist,
      since moral values are minimum at best . By the way, culture values
      have no relevance to violence of any shape or manner.

      What happen in the last school shooting, was the failure of established
      institutions, many governed by the left and the Obama administration,
      which instituted a race based school deferment barring enforcement of policing for violent and criminal behavior. These facts escape you.

      “The scientific discussion of guns would also have to include a discussion about how hormones effect behavior, and how the possession of guns affects the level of hormones in humans.”

      I am sure your CDC has made numerous “scientific” studies regarding
      the effect of hormonial behavior; if not, then NOW should have adequate
      studies or resources regarding raging hormones.

      “The scientific discussion of guns would also require a lot of mathematics and game theory to describe the effects of saturating a society with powerful, efficient, but essentially unstable and dangerous murder weapons, and what an escalating arms race in such a society will result in.”

      Scientific, seems to be a compelling theme for you!!!!!! Yes, indeed, math,
      game theory and science, along with modeling will find an answer to
      gun violence. In London, science can find the answer to knife killings
      and vehiclecide. Add those two to your “dangerous” murder weapons
      list.

      ” We may, however, soon be beyond the point of a scientific discussion of guns, and well on the way to anomie, something that the Russians would just love to see in their greatest adversary, the United States of America.”

      The sixth time you have mentioned scientific as a solution, rather than
      just appling common sense. Frankly, those who blame firearms for all
      the social ills and offer nothing more to the conservation are little more
      than gunhaters.

      I will be waiting for the two citations but will not hold my breath.

      1
  30. There are ten of thousand defensive use with handguns

    Probably not — the data indicates the number is in the low thousands at best — incredibly rare, despite the cries from folks like you.

    The fact that you don’t like reality because it doesn’t match your fantasy stories of good guys with guns doesn’t mean reality is wrong — it means you are.

    1. I believe the author of this thread is correct in the under reporting of
      suicides at gun ranges; however, he is dead wrong about homicides at
      gun ranges.

      “Probably not — the data indicates the number is in the low thousands at best — incredibly rare, despite the cries from folks like you.

      The fact that you don’t like reality because it doesn’t match your fantasy stories of good guys with guns doesn’t mean reality is wrong — it means you are.”

      You, like the other fellow produce no prima facie to support your points
      of view.

      The estimate of gun defence use ranges anywhere from 2 to 3 million
      annual incidents.

      https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

      “If we’ve heard it once, we’ve heard it a thousand times. The big bad NRA holds so much sway over their puppets in Congress that they got them to prohibit the Centers for Disease Control from even studying “gun violence” and the alleged public health crisis that we have in America due to our malignant relationship with firearms the right to keep and bear them.

      There’s only one problem with that anti-NRA talking point. It’s completely and utterly false.” <————— For Steve

      https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2016/06/13/the-cdc-isnt-banned-from-studying-gun-violence-its-just-too-scared-to-do-its-job

      "When I worked at the CDC, I asked injury prevention researchers what the Dickey Amendment meant to them. They told me they were worried about hurting their careers and losing the center money if they continued to study gun violence. They shifted their research elsewhere."

      "One month after the massacre, President Barack Obama issued an executive order saying that the director of the CDC "shall conduct or sponsor research into the causes of gun violence and the ways to prevent it."

      Frankly, in my opinion, the figures of gun defensive use are much too
      high. It suggest that nearly one out of one hundred America will be
      involved in a GDU, including children. These studies involve modeling
      and that alone should make them very suspect. The real numbers are
      more than likely one tenth of those cited. That would mean about
      200,000 to 300,000 events annually.

      If you live in a hood like mine, with lots of poverty, unemployment and drug
      dealing then a 1% DGU is not out of the question. If you live in a high
      class white suburb, the DGUs are almost nonexistent; higher in urban
      centers and nearly none in rural areas.

      I do not believe either what the gun lovers nor the gun haters quote
      for DGU.

      By the way, I do John Kerry, as a means of protection.

      I would not want either of you two at a potluck, since you bring
      nothing to the table other than your hungry appetite.

      1
  31. More on this subject.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/

    “In particular, a 2013 study ordered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

    Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

    “Subsequently, Kleck removed this version of the paper, although a copy of the original can be found here. As reported by Reason editor Brian Doherty:”

    It appears that Dr Kleck had over sampled in this modeling, as I had suspected,
    with his estimates of DGU of 2.5 million events.

    https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/04/defensive-gun-use-difficult-statistics-rare-events.html

    We do know that there was 300,000 crimes involving firearms, so one could
    draw a logical conclusion, that the DGU was somewhere between one
    to two times that number.

    https://reason.com/blog/2015/03/09/how-to-count-the-defensive-use-of-guns

  32. “Read through the Wilmington report, though, and you get a different story — one about the strange contortions that result as the CDC seeks to fulfill its public health mission without violating Congress’s orders.

    STAY INFORMED
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    While the new study analyzed Wilmington’s 127 recorded shootings in 2013, it does not address how the perpetrators acquired their weapons, or if attempts to limit access to firearms might lead to a dip in crime. Instead, the Wilmington report outlines already well-established trends and risk factors: that 95 percent of city residents arrested for violent crimes are young men; that a history of violence is a strong predictor for being involved in a firearm-related crime; and that unemployment is often a risk factor for violence. The report concludes that “integrating data systems” across Delaware would allow social service providers to better understand the issue.”

    Everything we knew in the hood. Lack of jobs and moral turpitude.
    The culture values of too much BET, gangs and big money in dope.

    1. Marginal revolution, reason, and bucky — you don’t have any resources that aren’t run by liars, racists, and scum as low as you? The Dallas news report isn’t any better.

      You’ve demonstrated repeatedly that you are incapable and so unwilling to read any research that is done correctly (statistics and thought are both difficult for folks like you, as is honesty) but just in case someone else will read:

      https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

      https://academic.oup.com/epirev/issue/38/1

      I also note your lies about the NRA and their use of Russian money. They recently admitted they’d been taking money since at least 2012. Of course, for years they lied about — as you do.

      “One high-profile Russian NRA supporter, state bank official Alexander Torshin, has cultivated a years-long relationship with the organization — but he was placed under sanction by the United States with other Russians last week.”

      It will be interesting to see your lie-filled responses. It will be depressing because there are so many low-lifes like you around the country who are as happily uninformed and dishonest as you are.

  33. Moral turpitude. Isn’t that something you can attribute to a serial adulterer and compulsive liar like Trump? I sure can. Trump and his anti-science minions are in a great position to Make Russia Great Again by causing more and more division in America.

    It takes a certain amount of intelligence and maturity to accept people who are not your parents, siblings, relatives, or tribe members, especially when your primitive culture teaches you to hate and dehumanize anybody who isn’t in your “in” group. And there is a constant barrage of right wing lies and propaganda trying to get people to reject, eject, and dehumanize entire races, ethnicities, religions, and cultures . Is it that conservatism appeals to the basest of human tendencies? Is it that conservatism has a need to preserve Bronze age tenets upon conservatism itself is based? I think that it does.

    1. “Moral turpitude. Isn’t that something you can attribute to a serial adulterer and compulsive liar like Trump? I sure can. Trump and his anti-science minions are in a great position to Make Russia Great Again by causing more and more division in America.

      It takes a certain amount of intelligence and maturity to accept people who are not your parents, siblings, relatives, or tribe members, especially when your primitive culture teaches you to hate and dehumanize anybody who isn’t in your “in” group. And there is a constant barrage of right wing lies and propaganda trying to get people to reject, eject, and dehumanize entire races, ethnicities, religions, and cultures . Is it that conservatism appeals to the basest of human tendencies? Is it that conservatism has a need to preserve Bronze age tenets upon conservatism itself is based? I think that it does.”

      What does lying Trump have to do with DGUs??

      ” especially when your primitive culture teaches you to hate and dehumanize anybody who isn’t in your “in” group. ”

      You described progressives and nihilists quite well.

      “there is a constant barrage of right wing lies and propaganda trying to get people to reject, eject, and dehumanize entire races, ethnicities, religions, and cultures.”

      Again, very notative of leftists views.

      Anything productive to say about DGU?? Or are you only inclined
      to rant about your political views?

      https://www.gofundme.com/kystie039s-best-defense

      How about helping this person?

      1
  34. “Marginal revolution, reason, and bucky — you don’t have any resources that aren’t run by liars, racists, and scum as low as you? The Dallas news report isn’t any better.”

    Both your two link had NOTHING about DGU. You are a stupid ass hat,
    with debating skills of a sixth grader. You are simply an empty suit, who’s
    only skill is debasing people. Degenerate, would be a good cable channel
    for you.

  35. Lionel, thank you for an intelligent response.

    “The National Rifle Association reported this week that it received more money from people with Russian ties than it has previously acknowledged, but announced that it was officially done cooperating with a congressional inquiry exploring whether illicit Kremlin-linked funding passed through the NRA and into Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) said on Wednesday.

    Of course they lobby but do thousands of entities.

    Wyden released a letter from the NRA, dated Tuesday, in which the gun rights group reported receiving $2,512.85 in contributions and membership dues “from people associated with Russian addresses” or known Russian nationals living in the United States from 2015 to the present. In the past, a congressional aide to Wyden said, the group had confirmed receiving only one financial contribution, in the form of a lifetime membership purchased by Alexander Torshin, a Russian banker.”

    I am not sure what the ethics are about using foreign money. Gee, is 25 hundred bucks even worth talking about?

    https://washingtonpress.com/2018/03/27/the-nra-just-finally-admitted-it-took-boatloads-of-foreign-money-ahead-of-2016-election/

    They headline boatloads but never give a figure. I gave the
    writer, Mr Taylor, your email.

  36. So, BillyR, you think that all races and religions should be loved and treated compassionately, even if they aren’t in your “in” group? Do you love people who aren’t white, gun loving, protestant, conservative southerners? Do you love Muslims? And gay people? And Jews? And progressives? And dark skinned people? Please tell us more about your gospel. I would love to hear it. Who do you love and why? And who do you hate and why? Who do you think is a suitable person for de-humanization? Who do you think is a suitable target for your very dehumanizing firearms? I consider myself to be a progressive, and I don’t hate anybody, but I sure hate it when people lie about me.

    Just to be clear where I stand, I believe that turning someone into a dead pile of meat and bone by using a firearm or any weapon is a tragedy in almost any circumstance, be it war, self defense, suicide, murder, or accident. When it happens, it means that human society has fucked up somehow. It means that society has created a criminal or a murderer, or let one be created. It means someone stole, that someone didn’t have enough, or that diplomats have failed to prevent a war. It means that someone never learned to manage their emotions, or that someone with intractable mental issues was never spotted and helped. It means that someone was misled to believe that a myth was truth, or that a truth was lie. It means that an individual or a nation has not learned how to get along with others. It means that we have failed to improve, failed to progress, failed to use our vast treasure of scientific knowledge for good. Sure. I will kill somebody who is trying to kill me or mine, but I don’t revel in the possibility.

    We are all just a hairs breadth from reverting to primitive reptilian behavior. We are all just a short distance to Lord of the Flies, to a reversion to a primitive rule of might versus thought. And some of us, it seems, really, really, want to go back to a warrior age, where silly things like thinking have little value. Where one simply reacts the way one was trained, where one simply believes what one was told, and where one simply plays out their role, whatever it has been determined to be by the “authorities”, by the king, by the lord. Some of us want a totally testosterone based behavior system, with a testosterone leader alpha male, and a pack of followers, and absolutely no thinking by the ditto heads in pack. Just follow the one leader. Like ducks, or wolves, or sheep or whatever. And there are plenty of failed human systems that have been built just like that.

    1. SteveP, you are hereby granted a honorable degree in Sociology.

      Your teaching credential are in the mail.

  37. Anything productive to say about DGU??

    Yes — as pointed out in the legitimate research, it does is not incredibly common — it happens in less than 1% of all armed confrontations.

    Somehow I knew you would be too lazy to read the references — or do the big words scare you?

  38. it does happen. it is not common. Bothers me a lot less than a few years back when a friend posted pics of Michelle and Barack as pop up targets on the Dragon’s Den live fire target course over in Colorado Springs….

  39. So, another gun worshiper just did what gun worshipers sometimes do. He shot innocent people, and then shot himself. This crazy white male idolized the Parkland mass murderer. I wonder what his blood lead level was?

    One of my biggest problems with gun worshipers and gun lovers is that they seem to be living in a fantasy world with totally fucked up values and warped perceptions of reality. Perhaps their high blood levels make it difficult to distinguish legal from illegal, right from wrong, beneficial from hurtful, destruction from creation.

    And by the way, I am not totally against firearms. Here is what I think. They are powerful and destructive tools, and much more effort needs to be made to keep these tools out of the hands of criminals, adolescents, crazy people, incompetent people, children, and infants. Just like you would keep a high powered excimer laser or an acetylene torch away from the same group. Until the gun love cargo cult shows that they are making a serious attempt to keep guns away from inappropriate demographics, I have to hold them as being a bunch of pathetic lead brains living childhood hero fantasies with the support and encouragement of the drama cow NRA.

    1. “They are powerful and destructive tools, and much more effort needs to be made to keep these tools out of the hands of criminals, adolescents, crazy people, incompetent people, children, and infants.”

      I concur with that statement.

      ” Until the gun love cargo cult shows that they are making a serious attempt to keep guns away from inappropriate demographics, I have to hold them as being a bunch of pathetic lead brains living childhood hero fantasies with the support and encouragement of the drama cow NRA.”

      Why are just firearm owners held to account?? For the past 1/2 of a century,
      the nations policies have been controlled by moderates and leftists.

      Who closed all of the insane asylum – it was the leftists and mental health
      experts.

  40. “still an ignorant ass incapable of rational thought aren’t you billyr?”

    Your quote is self-directing, dean!!! When you can’t defend your
    positions with any rational arguments, you, like a child engage in
    assaulting others with hair brain insults.

    You are a broken linchpin.

  41. “I also note your lies about the NRA and their use of Russian money. They recently admitted they’d been taking money since at least 2012. Of course, for years they lied about — as you do.”

    There you go again, dean, a bitter and loathing man, despite the
    control by your klan.

    You defecate on the truth, which is why you rarely ever produce
    any facts.

    “Wyden released a letter from the NRA, dated Tuesday, in which the gun rights group reported receiving $2,512.85 in contributions and membership dues “from people associated with Russian addresses” or known Russian nationals living in the United States from 2015 to the present. In the past, a congressional aide to Wyden said, the group had confirmed receiving only one financial contribution, in the form of a lifetime membership purchased by Alexander Torshin, a Russian banker.”

    Oh dear, released bi a Democratic Progressive!!! dean, that would not even
    pay for lunch at a fine NYC dinner for the round table members of this
    website.

  42. SteveP, are you confused?????

    “Just to be clear where I stand, I believe that turning someone into a dead pile of meat and bone by using a firearm or any weapon is a tragedy in almost any circumstance, be it war, self defense, suicide, murder, or accident.”

    “And by the way, I am not totally against firearms.”

    One of my biggest problems with anti gun worshipers and anti gun lovers is that they seem to be living in a fantasy world with totally fucked up values and warped perceptions of reality.

    Steveo, it is not high blood pressure nor lead poisoning which effects
    my firearm ownership but too many episodes of Bananza, Gunsmoke,
    The Rifleman and The Lone Ranger. <—– for diversity standards

    You were busy watching Little House on the Prairie.

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