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	Comments on: Heat Kills.  More Heat Kills More	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-947210</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-947210</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;In general, as the UN Environment Programme has pointed out, human food production and intensive agriculture has had a hugely negative impact on biodiversity.&quot;

An interesting sidelight to this comes from Richard Pearson&#039;s 2011 book &lt;i&gt;Driven to Extinction&lt;/i&gt;. Dr. Pearson cites the work of ecologist Blake Suttle in the Angelo Coast Range Reserve of California&#039;s Mendocino county. When he irrigated a patch of land, biodiversity first rose for two years but then declined as grasses took over and reduced the nutrient value per square foot. After five years it was half what it had been.

http://www.chris-winter.com/Erudition/Reviews/Biologee/Pearson_R/Extinction.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In general, as the UN Environment Programme has pointed out, human food production and intensive agriculture has had a hugely negative impact on biodiversity.&#8221;</p>
<p>An interesting sidelight to this comes from Richard Pearson&#8217;s 2011 book <i>Driven to Extinction</i>. Dr. Pearson cites the work of ecologist Blake Suttle in the Angelo Coast Range Reserve of California&#8217;s Mendocino county. When he irrigated a patch of land, biodiversity first rose for two years but then declined as grasses took over and reduced the nutrient value per square foot. After five years it was half what it had been.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chris-winter.com/Erudition/Reviews/Biologee/Pearson_R/Extinction.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.chris-winter.com/Erudition/Reviews/Biologee/Pearson_R/Extinction.html</a></p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Christopher Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-947209</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-947209</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I believe Greg&#039;s point is that the factory-farming methods common in the United States are far from the optimum for preserving biodiversity &#8212; or even farmland.

In his 2010 book &lt;i&gt;Eaarth&lt;/i&gt;, Bill McKibben touts local communities and the labor-intensive sort of farming that was standard when this nation was formed. It has much to recommend it: not least that in a world where manufacturing jobs are outsourced and automation takes over many others, hands-on farming is one option for gainful employment that will persist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Greg&#8217;s point is that the factory-farming methods common in the United States are far from the optimum for preserving biodiversity &mdash; or even farmland.</p>
<p>In his 2010 book <i>Eaarth</i>, Bill McKibben touts local communities and the labor-intensive sort of farming that was standard when this nation was formed. It has much to recommend it: not least that in a world where manufacturing jobs are outsourced and automation takes over many others, hands-on farming is one option for gainful employment that will persist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946732</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2021 11:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946732</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Roger, agricultural soils are also greatly diminished in terms of diversity compared with natural soils. Much research (including among my colleagues) is focusing on soil microbial communities and how these vary among native and invasive plants and in various natural and managed ecosystems. One thing is unambiguously clear: intensive agriculture harms the soil macro- and microbiomes: 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/gcb.12752

https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/conserving-healthy-soils

In general, as the UN Environment Programme has pointed out, human food production and intensive agriculture has had a hugely negative impact on biodiversity. This really should not be hard to understand, as natural ecosystems have been cleared en masse for human food production, and current agricultural practices in many parts of the world rely on heavy uses of fertilizers and pesticides. We are arguably living on a poisoned planet, a legacy of the &#039;green revolution&#039;, and its  reliance on environmentally destructive practices to wring as much productivity out of the land as possible. 

https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss

There is little doubt doubt that the plummeting abundance of many birds and other vertebrates and arthropods is due to continued agricultural expansion and  attendant reliance on damaging technologies. Where farming has been more extensive, biodiversity has fared better, but industrial-scale agriculture is leaving a very toxic legacy that is exacerbated by other anthropogenic threats including climate change.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger, agricultural soils are also greatly diminished in terms of diversity compared with natural soils. Much research (including among my colleagues) is focusing on soil microbial communities and how these vary among native and invasive plants and in various natural and managed ecosystems. One thing is unambiguously clear: intensive agriculture harms the soil macro- and microbiomes: </p>
<p><a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/gcb.12752" rel="nofollow ugc">https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/gcb.12752</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/conserving-healthy-soils" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/conserving-healthy-soils</a></p>
<p>In general, as the UN Environment Programme has pointed out, human food production and intensive agriculture has had a hugely negative impact on biodiversity. This really should not be hard to understand, as natural ecosystems have been cleared en masse for human food production, and current agricultural practices in many parts of the world rely on heavy uses of fertilizers and pesticides. We are arguably living on a poisoned planet, a legacy of the &#8216;green revolution&#8217;, and its  reliance on environmentally destructive practices to wring as much productivity out of the land as possible. </p>
<p><a href="https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss</a></p>
<p>There is little doubt doubt that the plummeting abundance of many birds and other vertebrates and arthropods is due to continued agricultural expansion and  attendant reliance on damaging technologies. Where farming has been more extensive, biodiversity has fared better, but industrial-scale agriculture is leaving a very toxic legacy that is exacerbated by other anthropogenic threats including climate change.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger Lambert		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946729</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946729</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946639&quot;&gt;Jeffh&lt;/a&gt;.

I live in Vermont, so my experience of  farmland is definitely not mile after mile of soybean fields.  But I know that even in a large corn field, the soil is alive with billions of organisms of all stripes; there are insects and other arthropods and birds and mammals and reptiles. Most fields on small farms have windrows which support all sorts of animals. Small farms are banquets of biologic diversity. Same with pasturelands, rangelands, grasslands. Huge mechanized monoculture estates are in the minority of total agricultural land, because arable lands are a minority of total agricultural lands. You see ecosystems diminished; I see diversity on a smaller scale.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946639">Jeffh</a>.</p>
<p>I live in Vermont, so my experience of  farmland is definitely not mile after mile of soybean fields.  But I know that even in a large corn field, the soil is alive with billions of organisms of all stripes; there are insects and other arthropods and birds and mammals and reptiles. Most fields on small farms have windrows which support all sorts of animals. Small farms are banquets of biologic diversity. Same with pasturelands, rangelands, grasslands. Huge mechanized monoculture estates are in the minority of total agricultural land, because arable lands are a minority of total agricultural lands. You see ecosystems diminished; I see diversity on a smaller scale.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger Lambert		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946728</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946728</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946638&quot;&gt;Jeffh&lt;/a&gt;.

No doubt arable cropland is less diverse than what preceded it, but to describe it as an ecological desert is a bit hyperbolic. The ecosystems of farmlands are much more robust than, say, the Mojave, whose ecosystem is ironically considered sacrosanct by people against placing PV there.  And again, arable lands are the minority of agricultural lands, and there is a fair amount of diversity even to that subset. 

I wonder what time scale Greg is using when he says that &quot; We will regenerate the massively destructive agricultural landscape&quot;. That landscape is absolutely crucial for the next century or two at least and I have to say that I hope that is not his only characterization of our agricultural lands, because that is a pretty antagonistic perspective.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946638">Jeffh</a>.</p>
<p>No doubt arable cropland is less diverse than what preceded it, but to describe it as an ecological desert is a bit hyperbolic. The ecosystems of farmlands are much more robust than, say, the Mojave, whose ecosystem is ironically considered sacrosanct by people against placing PV there.  And again, arable lands are the minority of agricultural lands, and there is a fair amount of diversity even to that subset. </p>
<p>I wonder what time scale Greg is using when he says that &#8221; We will regenerate the massively destructive agricultural landscape&#8221;. That landscape is absolutely crucial for the next century or two at least and I have to say that I hope that is not his only characterization of our agricultural lands, because that is a pretty antagonistic perspective.</p>
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		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946645</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946645</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946638&quot;&gt;Jeffh&lt;/a&gt;.

Completely off-topic but: I had never heard of &quot;depauperated&quot; or its root before. Interesting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946638">Jeffh</a>.</p>
<p>Completely off-topic but: I had never heard of &#8220;depauperated&#8221; or its root before. Interesting.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946639</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946639</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As an addendum, Roger, would you say that banana plantations, oil palm plantations and mile after mile of soybean fields have ‘robust ecologies’? If not, then how can we say that mile after mile of wheat fields or corn fields also have ‘robust ecologies’? These are effectively monocultures and they harbor little diversity. Vast agricultural landscapes annihilate biodiversity, and the US is no exception. Agricultural expansion has been achieved through massive natural habitat destruction and fragmentation. Certainly, some ‘weedy’ species have prospered, as have habitat generalists, but specialists have been decimated. There is little need for me to elaborate, as there is plenty of empirical evidence to support what I say.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an addendum, Roger, would you say that banana plantations, oil palm plantations and mile after mile of soybean fields have ‘robust ecologies’? If not, then how can we say that mile after mile of wheat fields or corn fields also have ‘robust ecologies’? These are effectively monocultures and they harbor little diversity. Vast agricultural landscapes annihilate biodiversity, and the US is no exception. Agricultural expansion has been achieved through massive natural habitat destruction and fragmentation. Certainly, some ‘weedy’ species have prospered, as have habitat generalists, but specialists have been decimated. There is little need for me to elaborate, as there is plenty of empirical evidence to support what I say.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946638</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946638</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Roger, I am an ecologist. Agricultural lands do not contain ‘robust ecologies’. They contain greatly simplified, faunally depauperated communities. They are also characterized by intensive applications of fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides. There is no doubt whatsoever that agricultural expansion in the US has pushed numerous species and populations to the brink of extinction. It has all but eliminated native tall grass prairie ecosystems. What is left of them cling to a meager existence along railway lines and in parking lots. The most productive agricultural lands are generally located in regions with low annual rainfall, making them at high risk of being converted to deserts. Also, the need to provide adequate water means that aquifers underlying them are literally sucked dry. The Oglalla aquifer is fast running out of water as is the aquifer underlying the China plain. When water availability is eventually limited to replenishment by rainfall, then the great breadbaskets of the US and China will be in deep trouble. 

Again, Greg’s description of agricultural landscapes as being ‘massively destructive’, at least in an ecological sense, is absolutely correct. You will not find many ecologists who disagree.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger, I am an ecologist. Agricultural lands do not contain ‘robust ecologies’. They contain greatly simplified, faunally depauperated communities. They are also characterized by intensive applications of fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides. There is no doubt whatsoever that agricultural expansion in the US has pushed numerous species and populations to the brink of extinction. It has all but eliminated native tall grass prairie ecosystems. What is left of them cling to a meager existence along railway lines and in parking lots. The most productive agricultural lands are generally located in regions with low annual rainfall, making them at high risk of being converted to deserts. Also, the need to provide adequate water means that aquifers underlying them are literally sucked dry. The Oglalla aquifer is fast running out of water as is the aquifer underlying the China plain. When water availability is eventually limited to replenishment by rainfall, then the great breadbaskets of the US and China will be in deep trouble. </p>
<p>Again, Greg’s description of agricultural landscapes as being ‘massively destructive’, at least in an ecological sense, is absolutely correct. You will not find many ecologists who disagree.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger Lambert		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946594</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2021 11:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946594</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946328&quot;&gt;Roger Lambert&lt;/a&gt;.

Which is not to say we could not do better. We could mandate windrows, the end of aqeuous manure lagoons, more till-free farming. We could mandate that CAFO manures be incorporated directly into soils, ie, make each CAFO a compost producer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946328">Roger Lambert</a>.</p>
<p>Which is not to say we could not do better. We could mandate windrows, the end of aqeuous manure lagoons, more till-free farming. We could mandate that CAFO manures be incorporated directly into soils, ie, make each CAFO a compost producer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger Lambert		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946589</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Lambert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2021 11:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34128#comment-946589</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946328&quot;&gt;Roger Lambert&lt;/a&gt;.

That scenario you paint with broad brush does not comport with reality. The majority of lands in the US are agricultural, most are not under mechanized agriculture, and even the ones that are are host to robust ecologies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/22/heat-kills-more-heat-kills-more/#comment-946328">Roger Lambert</a>.</p>
<p>That scenario you paint with broad brush does not comport with reality. The majority of lands in the US are agricultural, most are not under mechanized agriculture, and even the ones that are are host to robust ecologies.</p>
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