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	Comments on: What is Freedom?	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2021 11:33:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Haubrich		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-948237</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Haubrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2021 11:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-948237</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rick, I&#039;m not sure if you read the articles that you share, or just copy links from Google searches.  Here&#039;s a paragraph from the USA Today article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In Denmark, for instance, of nearly 12,000 people who tested positive during the first wave of coronavirus infections last year, more than 80% were protected in the second surge. But among those 65 and older, protection against repeat infection was only 47%. Protection didn&#039;t seem to fade over time.

Milder or asymptomatic infections may provide less protection than severe ones.

Unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 are more than twice as likely as fully vaccinated people to get COVID-19 again, Nordlund said.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;Sure, I almost died and spent two weeks with a tube down my throat, but I&#039;m probably immune now.&quot;

From Science.org:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In another analysis, the researchers compared more than 14,000 people who had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated with an equivalent number of previously infected people who received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The team found that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be reinfected as the singly vaccinated.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


And from the Medrxiv (BMJ) link you shared:

&lt;blockquote&gt;This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

1 out of 3 aint bad, and even the final one confirms the added benefit of at least a single dose.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, I&#8217;m not sure if you read the articles that you share, or just copy links from Google searches.  Here&#8217;s a paragraph from the USA Today article:</p>
<blockquote><p>In Denmark, for instance, of nearly 12,000 people who tested positive during the first wave of coronavirus infections last year, more than 80% were protected in the second surge. But among those 65 and older, protection against repeat infection was only 47%. Protection didn&#8217;t seem to fade over time.</p>
<p>Milder or asymptomatic infections may provide less protection than severe ones.</p>
<p>Unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 are more than twice as likely as fully vaccinated people to get COVID-19 again, Nordlund said.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Sure, I almost died and spent two weeks with a tube down my throat, but I&#8217;m probably immune now.&#8221;</p>
<p>From Science.org:</p>
<blockquote><p>In another analysis, the researchers compared more than 14,000 people who had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated with an equivalent number of previously infected people who received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The team found that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be reinfected as the singly vaccinated.</p></blockquote>
<p>And from the Medrxiv (BMJ) link you shared:</p>
<blockquote><p>This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.</p></blockquote>
<p>1 out of 3 aint bad, and even the final one confirms the added benefit of at least a single dose.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-948041</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2021 13:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-948041</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884&quot;&gt;Michael Haubrich&lt;/a&gt;.

And boom -- rickA, the walking pile of ignorance and science denial, replies with &quot;I don&#039;t care about your studies, I&#039;m right.&quot; 

Almost like repeating some chant 3 times and having a wraith appear.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884">Michael Haubrich</a>.</p>
<p>And boom &#8212; rickA, the walking pile of ignorance and science denial, replies with &#8220;I don&#8217;t care about your studies, I&#8217;m right.&#8221; </p>
<p>Almost like repeating some chant 3 times and having a wraith appear.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-948031</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2021 11:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-948031</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[RickA opines, &quot;natural immunity is better than vaccine acquired immunity&quot;. 

Not for 5 million souls (and counting) it isn&#039;t. They have no immunity because they are dead. And arguably not for tens of millions of others, either, who have long covid. I know several of them. They would take vaccinated immunity over natural immunity in a second if offered the choice again. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

RickA, your &#039;point&#039; is therefore mute. Governments that promoted natural infection to acquire herd immunity are not merely immoral, they are amoral. Which of these best describes you?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RickA opines, &#8220;natural immunity is better than vaccine acquired immunity&#8221;. </p>
<p>Not for 5 million souls (and counting) it isn&#8217;t. They have no immunity because they are dead. And arguably not for tens of millions of others, either, who have long covid. I know several of them. They would take vaccinated immunity over natural immunity in a second if offered the choice again. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. </p>
<p>RickA, your &#8216;point&#8217; is therefore mute. Governments that promoted natural infection to acquire herd immunity are not merely immoral, they are amoral. Which of these best describes you?</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947912</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947912</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884&quot;&gt;Michael Haubrich&lt;/a&gt;.

Here&#039;s betting he will come back and repeat his assertion in spite of the evidence that he is, again, completely wrong.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884">Michael Haubrich</a>.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s betting he will come back and repeat his assertion in spite of the evidence that he is, again, completely wrong.</p>
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		<title>
		By: RickA		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947909</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RickA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947909</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884&quot;&gt;Michael Haubrich&lt;/a&gt;.

Here are some cites:

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/10/19/natural-infection-vaccination-which-protects-better-against-covid/6034141001/

I am not anti-vaccine - I got the two course Moderna for myself and my family.  But quite a bit of evidence seems to indicate natural immunity is better than the vaccine acquired immunity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884">Michael Haubrich</a>.</p>
<p>Here are some cites:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1</a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/10/19/natural-infection-vaccination-which-protects-better-against-covid/6034141001/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/10/19/natural-infection-vaccination-which-protects-better-against-covid/6034141001/</a></p>
<p>I am not anti-vaccine &#8211; I got the two course Moderna for myself and my family.  But quite a bit of evidence seems to indicate natural immunity is better than the vaccine acquired immunity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Haubrich		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947884</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Haubrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2021 17:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947884</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a link:   https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w

From the Discussion header, first para:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
In this multistate analysis of hospitalizations for COVID-19–like illness among adults aged ?18 years during January–September 2021 whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among unvaccinated and previously infected patients than among those who were fully vaccinated with 2 doses of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine without previous documentation of a SARS-CoV-2 infection. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not certain where you&#039;re getting your information RickA]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a link:   <a href="https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w</a></p>
<p>From the Discussion header, first para:</p>
<blockquote><p>
In this multistate analysis of hospitalizations for COVID-19–like illness among adults aged ?18 years during January–September 2021 whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among unvaccinated and previously infected patients than among those who were fully vaccinated with 2 doses of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine without previous documentation of a SARS-CoV-2 infection. </p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not certain where you&#8217;re getting your information RickA</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947366</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2021 21:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947366</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947238&quot;&gt;dean&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;The data show natural immunity protects better against variants than vaccination.&quot;

The fact that you lack understanding isn&#039;t my problem.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947238">dean</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;The data show natural immunity protects better against variants than vaccination.&#8221;</p>
<p>The fact that you lack understanding isn&#8217;t my problem.</p>
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		<title>
		By: RickA		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947248</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RickA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2021 23:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947248</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947238&quot;&gt;dean&lt;/a&gt;.

Dean:

So you are comparing those who got vaccinated to those who didn&#039;t.  

The comparison which is relevant to my point is breakthrough infections for the vaccinated compared to second infections among the recovered.

The data show natural immunity protects better against variants than vaccination.

Even better is getting sick, recovering and then getting vaccinated.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947238">dean</a>.</p>
<p>Dean:</p>
<p>So you are comparing those who got vaccinated to those who didn&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>The comparison which is relevant to my point is breakthrough infections for the vaccinated compared to second infections among the recovered.</p>
<p>The data show natural immunity protects better against variants than vaccination.</p>
<p>Even better is getting sick, recovering and then getting vaccinated.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-947238</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-947238</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Given his history of denying or just being wrong about science in general it isn&#039;t a bit surprising rickA is wrong about natural immunity being better, but::

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579133-cdc-study-vaccination-offers-better-protection-than-previous-covid-19

Here&#039;s the kicker from the paper (I added the emphasis)

&lt;blockquote&gt;What is already known about this topic?

Previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19 vaccination can provide immunity and protection against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection and illness.

What is added by this report?

Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations among adults aged ?18 years whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, &lt;b&gt;the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among unvaccinated adults with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were 5.49-fold higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine who had no previous documented infection (95% confidence interval = 2.75–10.99)&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given his history of denying or just being wrong about science in general it isn&#8217;t a bit surprising rickA is wrong about natural immunity being better, but::</p>
<p><a href="https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579133-cdc-study-vaccination-offers-better-protection-than-previous-covid-19" rel="nofollow ugc">https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579133-cdc-study-vaccination-offers-better-protection-than-previous-covid-19</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the kicker from the paper (I added the emphasis)</p>
<blockquote><p>What is already known about this topic?</p>
<p>Previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19 vaccination can provide immunity and protection against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection and illness.</p>
<p>What is added by this report?</p>
<p>Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations among adults aged ?18 years whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, <b>the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among unvaccinated adults with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were 5.49-fold higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine who had no previous documented infection (95% confidence interval = 2.75–10.99)</b>.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Haubrich		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2021/10/04/what-is-freedom/#comment-946190</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Haubrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Oct 2021 15:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://gregladen.com/blog/?p=34093#comment-946190</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You and I are of like mind in this, Dean.  I&#039;ll shrug my shoulders if he does kick it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You and I are of like mind in this, Dean.  I&#8217;ll shrug my shoulders if he does kick it.</p>
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