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	Comments on: UPDATED: Was there a Clinton Surge or not?	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:33:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465572</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465572</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re 11: yup.

I note it wasn&#039;t answered, though, by anyone.

Odd that, eh?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 11: yup.</p>
<p>I note it wasn&#8217;t answered, though, by anyone.</p>
<p>Odd that, eh?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465571</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465571</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The UK was particularly let down by the young who didn’t bother to take their pro-European beliefs as far as the ballot box&quot;

No, it was let down by the elderly who turned out in their droves to vote on a mandate of &quot;I don&#039;t like today, it MUST be europe&#039;s fault, so lets leave!&quot;.

If nobody had voted for exiting, it wouldn&#039;t have mattered how many young had not bothered (and the &quot;not bothered&quot; was less than a third, not all of whom actually cared, since there wasn&#039;t any information to make an actual damn decision on).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The UK was particularly let down by the young who didn’t bother to take their pro-European beliefs as far as the ballot box&#8221;</p>
<p>No, it was let down by the elderly who turned out in their droves to vote on a mandate of &#8220;I don&#8217;t like today, it MUST be europe&#8217;s fault, so lets leave!&#8221;.</p>
<p>If nobody had voted for exiting, it wouldn&#8217;t have mattered how many young had not bothered (and the &#8220;not bothered&#8221; was less than a third, not all of whom actually cared, since there wasn&#8217;t any information to make an actual damn decision on).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465570</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465570</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;We need a Constitutional Amendment that makes voting mandatory.&quot;

If you do, you MUST allow a &quot;None of the above&quot; which puts government &quot;on hold&quot; and new candidates found to vote for if the &quot;None of the above&quot; vote wins the majority.

And you will probably need some method for coalition governments, specifically to defuse this false dichotomy of two parties.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We need a Constitutional Amendment that makes voting mandatory.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you do, you MUST allow a &#8220;None of the above&#8221; which puts government &#8220;on hold&#8221; and new candidates found to vote for if the &#8220;None of the above&#8221; vote wins the majority.</p>
<p>And you will probably need some method for coalition governments, specifically to defuse this false dichotomy of two parties.</p>
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		<title>
		By: cosmicomics		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465569</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cosmicomics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465569</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nate Silver sees the possibility of a Trump/Republican debacle caused by low turnout.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-trump-may-depress-republican-turnout-spelling-disaster-for-the-gop/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate Silver sees the possibility of a Trump/Republican debacle caused by low turnout.<br />
<a href="https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-trump-may-depress-republican-turnout-spelling-disaster-for-the-gop/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-trump-may-depress-republican-turnout-spelling-disaster-for-the-gop/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465568</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2016 23:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465568</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gary, that chart is not from the same day these data are taken from, uses a different scale, and all my numbers are the percent of Trump v. Clinton even if in a four way race, which is a more accurate prediction of who would win, say, a given state (if applied there)&gt;

I am very proud of everyone for looking so closely at the data and charts and commenting, instead of just taking a graph face value. But it is a but funny that the reason people are looking so closely is that their expectations are not being met. 

I&#039;ll have a full on analysis as soon as the first new set of polls come out, I expect on Monday and/or Tuesday, reflecting 100% post debate.  The fact remains that just as the news reporters were rushing to declare a huge gap, frequently referred to as a &quot;double digit lead,&quot; that was growing and would continue to grow until election day, the gap was that widened in the immediate wake of the bus tapes narrowed at least a bit and has not been widening.  And, all these charts make the differences look huge, but if you put in margin of error ...  Yes, Gary, don&#039;t relax!  Too much is at stake. 

I&#039;m still pretty much sticking with this set of predictions: 

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2016/10/16/the-current-trump-clinton-electoral-prediction/

But as I said, I&#039;ll have a new set out Mon or Tue.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary, that chart is not from the same day these data are taken from, uses a different scale, and all my numbers are the percent of Trump v. Clinton even if in a four way race, which is a more accurate prediction of who would win, say, a given state (if applied there)></p>
<p>I am very proud of everyone for looking so closely at the data and charts and commenting, instead of just taking a graph face value. But it is a but funny that the reason people are looking so closely is that their expectations are not being met. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have a full on analysis as soon as the first new set of polls come out, I expect on Monday and/or Tuesday, reflecting 100% post debate.  The fact remains that just as the news reporters were rushing to declare a huge gap, frequently referred to as a &#8220;double digit lead,&#8221; that was growing and would continue to grow until election day, the gap was that widened in the immediate wake of the bus tapes narrowed at least a bit and has not been widening.  And, all these charts make the differences look huge, but if you put in margin of error &#8230;  Yes, Gary, don&#8217;t relax!  Too much is at stake. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m still pretty much sticking with this set of predictions: </p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2016/10/16/the-current-trump-clinton-electoral-prediction/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2016/10/16/the-current-trump-clinton-electoral-prediction/</a></p>
<p>But as I said, I&#8217;ll have a new set out Mon or Tue.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465567</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2016 23:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465567</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The average of the last three data points would give you a final gap in the moving averages at least 3 times the size of the gap your chart shows, which undermines your argument that the numbers are converging again.&quot;

Steve, you can look at the chart and see the points and the line.  Nothing is being hidden here, this is not a science denialist tactic.  

It really is optionally done this way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The average of the last three data points would give you a final gap in the moving averages at least 3 times the size of the gap your chart shows, which undermines your argument that the numbers are converging again.&#8221;</p>
<p>Steve, you can look at the chart and see the points and the line.  Nothing is being hidden here, this is not a science denialist tactic.  </p>
<p>It really is optionally done this way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gary S		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465566</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465566</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree about not relaxing. But I don&#039;t see the same chart you show from the RCP site. Their current four-way chart has Clinton ahead of Trump by over 5 percent. See here:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about not relaxing. But I don&#8217;t see the same chart you show from the RCP site. Their current four-way chart has Clinton ahead of Trump by over 5 percent. See here:<br />
<a href="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: cosmicomics		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465565</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cosmicomics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2016 21:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465565</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[#19
&lt;i&gt;But I’ve never seen the winning side give up the fight so completely as I’m seeing it right now, and that is very dangerous.&lt;/i&gt;

What I&#039;m seeing is just the opposite – an extension of the fight into otherwise secure red states. I&#039;m seeing the effective use of surrogates, and I expect that Clinton&#039;s performance in the last debate will soon give her another little bump. 

Early voting seems to indicate a Democratic advantage, and the turnout capabilities of the two campaigns favor the Democrats. In 2012 Obama did better than the polls predicted, and I believe that that will be the case this time too. And this time the Democrats will probably have the added benefit of reduced Republican turnout. 

Meanwhile the prospect for a Democratic Senate majority looks better than ever. 
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-update-the-last-week-has-been-very-kind-to-democrats-hopes-for-a-majority/

The Princeton Election Consortium gives the Democrats a 79% chance of control.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19<br />
<i>But I’ve never seen the winning side give up the fight so completely as I’m seeing it right now, and that is very dangerous.</i></p>
<p>What I&#8217;m seeing is just the opposite – an extension of the fight into otherwise secure red states. I&#8217;m seeing the effective use of surrogates, and I expect that Clinton&#8217;s performance in the last debate will soon give her another little bump. </p>
<p>Early voting seems to indicate a Democratic advantage, and the turnout capabilities of the two campaigns favor the Democrats. In 2012 Obama did better than the polls predicted, and I believe that that will be the case this time too. And this time the Democrats will probably have the added benefit of reduced Republican turnout. </p>
<p>Meanwhile the prospect for a Democratic Senate majority looks better than ever.<br />
<a href="https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-update-the-last-week-has-been-very-kind-to-democrats-hopes-for-a-majority/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-update-the-last-week-has-been-very-kind-to-democrats-hopes-for-a-majority/</a></p>
<p>The Princeton Election Consortium gives the Democrats a 79% chance of control.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465564</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2016 20:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465564</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Amazing...  Propaganda really, REALLY works to brainwash human beings.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-rigging-idUSKCN12L2O2]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing&#8230;  Propaganda really, REALLY works to brainwash human beings.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-rigging-idUSKCN12L2O2" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-rigging-idUSKCN12L2O2</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/10/20/who-lost-the-third-presidential-debate/#comment-465563</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=23131#comment-465563</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Al Franken didn&#039;t take his Senate seat until July because Norm Coleman kept demanding recounts. That&#039;s the situation to compare a possible Trump protest to.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al Franken didn&#8217;t take his Senate seat until July because Norm Coleman kept demanding recounts. That&#8217;s the situation to compare a possible Trump protest to.</p>
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