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	Comments on: How Will Clinton And Sanders Do On Tuesday? (Updated)	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Jack		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-553822</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Nov 2017 09:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-553822</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great write-up, I’m regular visitor of one’s website, maintain up the excellent operate, and It is going to be a regular visitor for a lengthy time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great write-up, I’m regular visitor of one’s website, maintain up the excellent operate, and It is going to be a regular visitor for a lengthy time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Donal		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468705</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 23:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468705</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[#26: From FiveThirtyEight&#039;s live feed tonight: &quot;The problem in Michigan, Mitchell said, was chiefly that the firm underestimated turnout among younger voters. And one big reason for that is that the firm didn’t dial cellphones — in part based on voter turnout estimates from Mark Grebner, founder of Practical Political Consulting, who provided Mitchell’s lists of voters to call. Grebner had found that people under 50 made up no more than 27 percent of voters in August Democratic primaries — for local races — in 2010, 2012 and 2014. And Mitchell figured from those sorts of numbers that it was safe to miss people who have only cellphones. “I’m afraid I just got kind of complacent.”]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#26: From FiveThirtyEight&#8217;s live feed tonight: &#8220;The problem in Michigan, Mitchell said, was chiefly that the firm underestimated turnout among younger voters. And one big reason for that is that the firm didn’t dial cellphones — in part based on voter turnout estimates from Mark Grebner, founder of Practical Political Consulting, who provided Mitchell’s lists of voters to call. Grebner had found that people under 50 made up no more than 27 percent of voters in August Democratic primaries — for local races — in 2010, 2012 and 2014. And Mitchell figured from those sorts of numbers that it was safe to miss people who have only cellphones. “I’m afraid I just got kind of complacent.”</p>
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		<title>
		By: jane		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468704</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468704</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m suspicious of WaPo as reliably neocon and pro-business - the actual headline of the piece is &quot;What Sanders Would Do To America&quot; - but did just now go read the piece.  It does present both positive and negative claims about several of Sanders&#039; ideas, though it is certainly written to favor the latter.  (Example, it is suggested that the world as a whole is better off if America&#039;s &quot;cutthroat&quot; capitalism leads to more Innovation, a sacred concept in the religion of Progress.  All well and good unless you are one of the people who gets his throat cut!)

I think that the piece overlooks some historical facts.  For one thing, the peak of American prosperity came when the top marginal tax rates were far higher than they are today.  Even in the Clinton era, when the working class were better off than they are now, the top tax rates were higher.  It is hardly clear that allowing the already rich to earn huge amounts of fictive wealth via capital gains and pay almost nothing on it is, indeed, the best way to ensure that the nation as a whole prospers.  

I disagree with Sanders that every kid should go to college; some should go to trade school, or, shock horror, be apprenticed in useful businesses.  However, free public-school tuition for capable students is hardly a radical new commie idea.  My own father - a brilliant scientist who later in life was a dedicated free-marketeer - was the first person in his family to go to college, and as a Caifornia resident, he went to UC Berkeley tuition-free.  Telling America&#039;s children that if they hope to eat in future they&#039;d better be able to pay through the nose for their own job training (and retraining, and re-retraining) is becoming unsustainable.

As for single payer health care, I recognize its flaws, but also its strengths.  For someone like me who prefers to avoid hyper-aggressive and expensive interventions, having seen loved ones virtually destroyed by such, being &quot;rationed&quot; to generally affordable options would be fine.  My favorite author/blogger (I doubt he&#039;d be your cup of tea) has said more than once that he and his wife will be paying the Obamacare penalty rather than buying insurance, because as private individuals, it would cost them more per month than their mortgage payment to get a policy with a $10K deductible and high copays, which means that if anyone had an expensive illness, they&#039;d be bankrupted anyway.  Obamacare has done something to help some people get care, but it has also been a gigantic transfer of wealth from individuals, willing or otherwise, to big insurance companies.  

And there may not be a silent majority fed up with BAU, but it looks like there&#039;s a substantial minority who are.  The Trumpists are hard to deny because they&#039;re the opposite of silent, but I think there&#039;s a quiet groundswell building for Sanders as well.  For many millions of Americans, the situation is much, much harsher than &quot;well, you&#039;ll have to live at home for a few years after college, then ultimately you&#039;ll live as well as your parents.&quot;  It&#039;s more like &quot;you may never get a job that allows you to have what society defines as necessities, you may never be out of debt, your basic security will ride on a razor&#039;s edge forever; certainly that lifelong job that gave your wage-class father enough economic security to have a house and to retire will never be possible for you.&quot;  If you aren&#039;t yourself poor or low-wage and don&#039;t socialize with people who are, you may not realize, because the media don&#039;t like to point it out, how many people in this country are immiserated and see no way out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m suspicious of WaPo as reliably neocon and pro-business &#8211; the actual headline of the piece is &#8220;What Sanders Would Do To America&#8221; &#8211; but did just now go read the piece.  It does present both positive and negative claims about several of Sanders&#8217; ideas, though it is certainly written to favor the latter.  (Example, it is suggested that the world as a whole is better off if America&#8217;s &#8220;cutthroat&#8221; capitalism leads to more Innovation, a sacred concept in the religion of Progress.  All well and good unless you are one of the people who gets his throat cut!)</p>
<p>I think that the piece overlooks some historical facts.  For one thing, the peak of American prosperity came when the top marginal tax rates were far higher than they are today.  Even in the Clinton era, when the working class were better off than they are now, the top tax rates were higher.  It is hardly clear that allowing the already rich to earn huge amounts of fictive wealth via capital gains and pay almost nothing on it is, indeed, the best way to ensure that the nation as a whole prospers.  </p>
<p>I disagree with Sanders that every kid should go to college; some should go to trade school, or, shock horror, be apprenticed in useful businesses.  However, free public-school tuition for capable students is hardly a radical new commie idea.  My own father &#8211; a brilliant scientist who later in life was a dedicated free-marketeer &#8211; was the first person in his family to go to college, and as a Caifornia resident, he went to UC Berkeley tuition-free.  Telling America&#8217;s children that if they hope to eat in future they&#8217;d better be able to pay through the nose for their own job training (and retraining, and re-retraining) is becoming unsustainable.</p>
<p>As for single payer health care, I recognize its flaws, but also its strengths.  For someone like me who prefers to avoid hyper-aggressive and expensive interventions, having seen loved ones virtually destroyed by such, being &#8220;rationed&#8221; to generally affordable options would be fine.  My favorite author/blogger (I doubt he&#8217;d be your cup of tea) has said more than once that he and his wife will be paying the Obamacare penalty rather than buying insurance, because as private individuals, it would cost them more per month than their mortgage payment to get a policy with a $10K deductible and high copays, which means that if anyone had an expensive illness, they&#8217;d be bankrupted anyway.  Obamacare has done something to help some people get care, but it has also been a gigantic transfer of wealth from individuals, willing or otherwise, to big insurance companies.  </p>
<p>And there may not be a silent majority fed up with BAU, but it looks like there&#8217;s a substantial minority who are.  The Trumpists are hard to deny because they&#8217;re the opposite of silent, but I think there&#8217;s a quiet groundswell building for Sanders as well.  For many millions of Americans, the situation is much, much harsher than &#8220;well, you&#8217;ll have to live at home for a few years after college, then ultimately you&#8217;ll live as well as your parents.&#8221;  It&#8217;s more like &#8220;you may never get a job that allows you to have what society defines as necessities, you may never be out of debt, your basic security will ride on a razor&#8217;s edge forever; certainly that lifelong job that gave your wage-class father enough economic security to have a house and to retire will never be possible for you.&#8221;  If you aren&#8217;t yourself poor or low-wage and don&#8217;t socialize with people who are, you may not realize, because the media don&#8217;t like to point it out, how many people in this country are immiserated and see no way out.</p>
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		By: March 15th Democratic Primary Results: What does it mean? &#8211; Greg Laden&#039;s Blog		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468703</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[March 15th Democratic Primary Results: What does it mean? &#8211; Greg Laden&#039;s Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468703</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] in, and I&#8217;ll add the outcome of the primaries below, where I will also compare the results to my predictions and discuss what I think this means for the overall process of the Democratic primaries. But first, [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] in, and I&#8217;ll add the outcome of the primaries below, where I will also compare the results to my predictions and discuss what I think this means for the overall process of the Democratic primaries. But first, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: zebra		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468702</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zebra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468702</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[jane,

I refer you to today&#039;s WaPo, the wonkblog piece titled &quot;What Sanders Would Do...&quot; A balanced discussion of pros and cons.

But, in the general election, it doesn&#039;t matter which economist is right about the net gains or losses. As a platform, it is a complete loser. There is no &quot;silent majority&quot; &quot;fed up with BAU&quot; enough to take those kinds of risks. 

Not to be too snarky, but young folks with college debt having to live at home for a while &lt;b&gt;are not the same&lt;/b&gt; as hard-bitten WWI veterans riding the rails begging for food, and being gunned down by company thugs for trying to organize. Very very different times.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jane,</p>
<p>I refer you to today&#8217;s WaPo, the wonkblog piece titled &#8220;What Sanders Would Do&#8230;&#8221; A balanced discussion of pros and cons.</p>
<p>But, in the general election, it doesn&#8217;t matter which economist is right about the net gains or losses. As a platform, it is a complete loser. There is no &#8220;silent majority&#8221; &#8220;fed up with BAU&#8221; enough to take those kinds of risks. </p>
<p>Not to be too snarky, but young folks with college debt having to live at home for a while <b>are not the same</b> as hard-bitten WWI veterans riding the rails begging for food, and being gunned down by company thugs for trying to organize. Very very different times.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jane		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468701</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468701</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Actually, zebra, I think I already left you with the fact that polls are now useless.  So it appears that there is something on which we agree!  

Some very liberal states are not voting for several weeks yet - it is regrettable how disproportionate an influence the former Confederate States of America have gained over the perception of &quot;electability&quot; just by voting early - so it&#039;s not over till it&#039;s over.  However, if Hillary wins across the board tonight, as polls claim she will, I will agree that she is the presumptive nominee, regardless of the fact that I have, by my values, darn good reasons for disliking her.  If Bernie wins two of the three non-Southern states in play today, I will continue to be confident that he has a real shot.

I can&#039;t imagine why you think Kasich vs. Sanders is a likely matchup.  Kasich has almost no chance of walking away with the nomination despite being third in the votes.  Nor do I see it as assured that Hillary would beat Trump (even if we presume there is zero chance that Hillary gets indicted).  The &quot;moderate&quot; candidate historically wins the general election because the voters historically are satisfied enough with BAU that they want to keep it going, or at least not so dissatisfied that they want to risk the devil they don&#039;t know, and will settle for kicking the can down the road another four to eight years.  Once you get a critical mass of people who feel like they just can&#039;t take another eight years of BAU, that is no longer a trend that can be relied upon.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, zebra, I think I already left you with the fact that polls are now useless.  So it appears that there is something on which we agree!  </p>
<p>Some very liberal states are not voting for several weeks yet &#8211; it is regrettable how disproportionate an influence the former Confederate States of America have gained over the perception of &#8220;electability&#8221; just by voting early &#8211; so it&#8217;s not over till it&#8217;s over.  However, if Hillary wins across the board tonight, as polls claim she will, I will agree that she is the presumptive nominee, regardless of the fact that I have, by my values, darn good reasons for disliking her.  If Bernie wins two of the three non-Southern states in play today, I will continue to be confident that he has a real shot.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine why you think Kasich vs. Sanders is a likely matchup.  Kasich has almost no chance of walking away with the nomination despite being third in the votes.  Nor do I see it as assured that Hillary would beat Trump (even if we presume there is zero chance that Hillary gets indicted).  The &#8220;moderate&#8221; candidate historically wins the general election because the voters historically are satisfied enough with BAU that they want to keep it going, or at least not so dissatisfied that they want to risk the devil they don&#8217;t know, and will settle for kicking the can down the road another four to eight years.  Once you get a critical mass of people who feel like they just can&#8217;t take another eight years of BAU, that is no longer a trend that can be relied upon.</p>
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		By: RickR		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468700</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RickR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 14:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468700</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For whatever it is worth, if you go to Bing and search &#039;presidential primaries&#039; is will give you their in-house predictions for today&#039;s primaries. On the democratic side, the have Clinton winning in four out of the five races, with Missouri being the Sander&#039;s win, with 57.6% of the vote. Illinois is the only state that they have Clinton winning by less than 60%.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For whatever it is worth, if you go to Bing and search &#8216;presidential primaries&#8217; is will give you their in-house predictions for today&#8217;s primaries. On the democratic side, the have Clinton winning in four out of the five races, with Missouri being the Sander&#8217;s win, with 57.6% of the vote. Illinois is the only state that they have Clinton winning by less than 60%.</p>
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		<title>
		By: zebra		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468699</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zebra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 11:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468699</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[jane,

I get it-- the polls are wrong unless you like the result.

And the data is right unless you don&#039;t like the result.

So I will leave you with the facts; polls at this point are useless.

Bernie is running on a platform where he takes away the health insurance that people have, along with other similarly extreme and unpopular ideas for a general election platform.

Kasich would beat him, even without the support of the Trump fanatics, even if Trump were also running in the general. That&#039;s because of both the platform and qualities of the individual, which play heavily in general elections.

The majority of each party so far has rejected Trump and Bernie. The (perceived) moderate, competent, candidate historically wins the general.

Hillary would beat Trump easily for the same reason, and has the best (and very good) chance of defeating a Kasich-type opponent. 

Anyway, you can carry on with whatever convoluted story you are telling yourself to justify your animus towards Hillary.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jane,</p>
<p>I get it&#8211; the polls are wrong unless you like the result.</p>
<p>And the data is right unless you don&#8217;t like the result.</p>
<p>So I will leave you with the facts; polls at this point are useless.</p>
<p>Bernie is running on a platform where he takes away the health insurance that people have, along with other similarly extreme and unpopular ideas for a general election platform.</p>
<p>Kasich would beat him, even without the support of the Trump fanatics, even if Trump were also running in the general. That&#8217;s because of both the platform and qualities of the individual, which play heavily in general elections.</p>
<p>The majority of each party so far has rejected Trump and Bernie. The (perceived) moderate, competent, candidate historically wins the general.</p>
<p>Hillary would beat Trump easily for the same reason, and has the best (and very good) chance of defeating a Kasich-type opponent. </p>
<p>Anyway, you can carry on with whatever convoluted story you are telling yourself to justify your animus towards Hillary.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Donal		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468698</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2016 11:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468698</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[#27 Jane, I am also putting less trust in polls. A while back I said that both Hillary and Trump would be weak candidates. I now feel that since both parties are fractured - the GOP more obviously - any two nominees will be inherently weak. Any establishment nominee will tick off the outsider&#039;s supporters, and any outsider nominee will frighten at least some moderate voters. Trump, however, might be making Cruz look like a safe outsider pick in a brokered convention.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#27 Jane, I am also putting less trust in polls. A while back I said that both Hillary and Trump would be weak candidates. I now feel that since both parties are fractured &#8211; the GOP more obviously &#8211; any two nominees will be inherently weak. Any establishment nominee will tick off the outsider&#8217;s supporters, and any outsider nominee will frighten at least some moderate voters. Trump, however, might be making Cruz look like a safe outsider pick in a brokered convention.</p>
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		By: jane		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2016/03/12/how-will-clinton-and-sanders-do-in-florida-illinois-missouri-n-carolina-and-ohio/#comment-468697</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2016 20:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=22255#comment-468697</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hyperbole?  Things are getting really scary in this country.  A kid just got stomped for being brown by a guy who was yelling &quot;Trump, Trump.&quot;  Many of his fervent supporters actively want racial and religious persecution, but the rest of them are willing to accept it if he just offers a plausible-sounding claim that he&#039;ll keep them, personally, from sliding further into economic disaster.  This is looking more like Germany 1932 all the time.

Hillary beats Trump handily in polls, though not as handily as Sanders does, but I don&#039;t have much confidence in that.  Polls said she&#039;d beat Sanders in Wisconsin, too.  It is possible that polling methods are systematically underestimating the share of the vote that a populist candidate will get.  Trump has a fanatical group of supporters, whereas most of the electorate views Hillary as simply the lesser evil; will enough of them work hard enough for her to overcome his advantage in money and goons?  Elitism vs. pseudo-populism is not a bet I feel comfortable taking this year.

As for your other scenarios, there is no point on speculating on Kasich vs. Clinton.  In a normal year you would think Kasich would do better than Trump in the general election, but that doesn&#039;t matter if he can&#039;t be nominated because he&#039;s too &quot;establishment.&quot;  If Kasich, Romney or whoever mounts an independent run, or if the GOP finds a way to take the nomination away from Trump and he runs as an independent, the former GOP vote is split and, even with Trump picking up many disaffected wage-class white votes, the Democratic nominee almost certainly wins.  I can&#039;t imagine why you think &quot;Bernie still loses in that scenario&quot;; if Bernie could beat Trump one-on-one, why can&#039;t he beat Trump in a three-way?

(Caveat: if none of the parties in a three-way election received a majority of the electoral votes, it would be thrown to the House of Representatives, which would crown the more favored of the GOP candidates.  I can imagine how the Stormtrumpers would react if Trump had the plurality and the prize was handed to the establishment guy.  Sadly, if Sanders had the plurality, his supporters would not rise up.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hyperbole?  Things are getting really scary in this country.  A kid just got stomped for being brown by a guy who was yelling &#8220;Trump, Trump.&#8221;  Many of his fervent supporters actively want racial and religious persecution, but the rest of them are willing to accept it if he just offers a plausible-sounding claim that he&#8217;ll keep them, personally, from sliding further into economic disaster.  This is looking more like Germany 1932 all the time.</p>
<p>Hillary beats Trump handily in polls, though not as handily as Sanders does, but I don&#8217;t have much confidence in that.  Polls said she&#8217;d beat Sanders in Wisconsin, too.  It is possible that polling methods are systematically underestimating the share of the vote that a populist candidate will get.  Trump has a fanatical group of supporters, whereas most of the electorate views Hillary as simply the lesser evil; will enough of them work hard enough for her to overcome his advantage in money and goons?  Elitism vs. pseudo-populism is not a bet I feel comfortable taking this year.</p>
<p>As for your other scenarios, there is no point on speculating on Kasich vs. Clinton.  In a normal year you would think Kasich would do better than Trump in the general election, but that doesn&#8217;t matter if he can&#8217;t be nominated because he&#8217;s too &#8220;establishment.&#8221;  If Kasich, Romney or whoever mounts an independent run, or if the GOP finds a way to take the nomination away from Trump and he runs as an independent, the former GOP vote is split and, even with Trump picking up many disaffected wage-class white votes, the Democratic nominee almost certainly wins.  I can&#8217;t imagine why you think &#8220;Bernie still loses in that scenario&#8221;; if Bernie could beat Trump one-on-one, why can&#8217;t he beat Trump in a three-way?</p>
<p>(Caveat: if none of the parties in a three-way election received a majority of the electoral votes, it would be thrown to the House of Representatives, which would crown the more favored of the GOP candidates.  I can imagine how the Stormtrumpers would react if Trump had the plurality and the prize was handed to the establishment guy.  Sadly, if Sanders had the plurality, his supporters would not rise up.)</p>
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