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	Comments on: NASA Study of Antarctic Ice Melt Misunderstood	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473511</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473511</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gerrit I send you an email.  Cheers,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerrit I send you an email.  Cheers,</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gerrit Bogaers		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473510</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerrit Bogaers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473510</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Greg. I wish to thank you for your most welcome post. It is very informative. I&#039;m writing a book about todays worrying world topics. Antarctica plays a vital role in it. I think your article  is very clarifying. I would appreciate it very much if you would give me permission to publish your article under mentioning your authorship and Blog. I hope to hear from you. It would mean a lot for me.  Respectfully Yours, Gerrit Bogaers, Laren NH, Netherlands, Friday 25 March 2016, 19.17 Dutch Time PM]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Greg. I wish to thank you for your most welcome post. It is very informative. I&#8217;m writing a book about todays worrying world topics. Antarctica plays a vital role in it. I think your article  is very clarifying. I would appreciate it very much if you would give me permission to publish your article under mentioning your authorship and Blog. I hope to hear from you. It would mean a lot for me.  Respectfully Yours, Gerrit Bogaers, Laren NH, Netherlands, Friday 25 March 2016, 19.17 Dutch Time PM</p>
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		<title>
		By: New Antarctic Glacial Melt Study Slightly Increases IPCC Rate Estimate &#8211; Greg Laden&#039;s Blog		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473509</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[New Antarctic Glacial Melt Study Slightly Increases IPCC Rate Estimate &#8211; Greg Laden&#039;s Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473509</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Like another recent paper on Antarctic ice sheets, other studies as well as the paleorecord conflict with the present study enough that this study has to be reviewed carefully before we can assess its contribution to understanding Antarctic ice sheet melting. It may be right, and that would be good news in comparison to some of the higher estimates. However, ice sheet deterioration is very complex, and it is possible that this modeling effort does not account for enough of the important variables, and may not be detailed enough to be reliable. The authors note some of these problems. [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Like another recent paper on Antarctic ice sheets, other studies as well as the paleorecord conflict with the present study enough that this study has to be reviewed carefully before we can assess its contribution to understanding Antarctic ice sheet melting. It may be right, and that would be good news in comparison to some of the higher estimates. However, ice sheet deterioration is very complex, and it is possible that this modeling effort does not account for enough of the important variables, and may not be detailed enough to be reliable. The authors note some of these problems. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473508</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2015 18:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473508</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[sdm: That might be mostly meaningless quirky history, but there could be some interesting factors at play.  There are a lot of reasons  a particular paper might be published at a certain time, with certain authors, with certain data.  Sometimes to close out a grant you need to submit a promised peer review publication. This looks to me like a paper that might have been hanging around a while. 

A key fact is that the basic honest (one hopes and strives for) of the scientific endeavor is sometimes going to come out with odd sequences of events like this. They had data, they had an analysis, they had results. More than once. the idea that results from within an overlapping team can contradict one another is more likely when the results are close, as is the case here. You don&#039;t &quot;sign on&quot; to a paper because it fits or does not fit other findings.  Etc.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sdm: That might be mostly meaningless quirky history, but there could be some interesting factors at play.  There are a lot of reasons  a particular paper might be published at a certain time, with certain authors, with certain data.  Sometimes to close out a grant you need to submit a promised peer review publication. This looks to me like a paper that might have been hanging around a while. </p>
<p>A key fact is that the basic honest (one hopes and strives for) of the scientific endeavor is sometimes going to come out with odd sequences of events like this. They had data, they had an analysis, they had results. More than once. the idea that results from within an overlapping team can contradict one another is more likely when the results are close, as is the case here. You don&#8217;t &#8220;sign on&#8221; to a paper because it fits or does not fit other findings.  Etc.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473507</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2015 18:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473507</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michael Goodwin: &lt;i&gt;I’m so tired of the mental gymnastics that global alarmists go through when the evidence goes against their proclamations, which are almost exclusively based on computer models...&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re tired? I&#039;d love to grab you by the scruff of the neck, drag you to a blackboard, and force you to write 100 times: &quot;THE CONSENSUS ON GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT BASED ON COMPUTER MODELS.&quot;

That still wouldn&#039;t equal the number of times I&#039;ve heard this drivel from Denialists.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Goodwin: <i>I’m so tired of the mental gymnastics that global alarmists go through when the evidence goes against their proclamations, which are almost exclusively based on computer models&#8230;</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;re tired? I&#8217;d love to grab you by the scruff of the neck, drag you to a blackboard, and force you to write 100 times: &#8220;THE CONSENSUS ON GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT BASED ON COMPUTER MODELS.&#8221;</p>
<p>That still wouldn&#8217;t equal the number of times I&#8217;ve heard this drivel from Denialists.</p>
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		<title>
		By: sdm		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473506</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sdm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2015 16:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473506</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I find it peculiar that two authors in the Zwally et al 2015 paper, Zwally and Donghui Yi, were also contributing authors in the Shepherd et al 2012 paper - http://www.ess.uci.edu/.../science-2012-shepherd-1183-9.pdf - which, combining an ensemble of satellite altimetry, interferometry, and gravimetry data sets, showed that Antarctica, between 1992 and 2011, was undergoing negative mass ice balance and contributing to SLR, while Zwally et al 2015 showed a positive mass balance from Antarctica and reduced sea level from 1992 to 2008. The Shepherd et al paper was published in 2012, but included later data than the Zwally et al 2015 paper. Why did Zwally and Yi sign on the the Shepherd et al paper including data up to 2011, and then later submit a paper contradicting the Shepherd et al conclusions, but whose data extended only to 2008?

The starting date for both papers was 1992. The Shepherd et al paper included European Remote-Sensing (ERS-1 and ERS-2), which spanned from May 1992 to September 2010. The Zwally et al 2015 paper also included those data, but only included data from 1992 up to 2001. The Shepherd et al 2012 paper also included Envisat data, the Zwally et al paper did not. Both studies included ICESat data from 2003 to 2008. The Shepherd et al study also included GRACE data. So the Shepherd ensemble of data sets was definitely more inclusive, both in terms of data and the time interval covered. 

The Shepherd et al study found that Antarctica as a whole, lost 1350 ± 1010 Gt of ice, whereas Zwally et al show an average gain of 82 ± 25 Gt per year from ICESat data (2003-2008), and an average gain of 112 ± 61 Gt per year from ERS data. The Shepherd et al interpretation of the data show an annual contribution to SLR from Antarctica from 1992 to 2011, but the Zwally et al interpretation of the data, which is a subset of the Shepherd data set ensemble, show an annual reduction in sea level from Antarctica from 1992 to 2008.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it peculiar that two authors in the Zwally et al 2015 paper, Zwally and Donghui Yi, were also contributing authors in the Shepherd et al 2012 paper &#8211; <a href="http://www.ess.uci.edu/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ess.uci.edu/</a>&#8230;/science-2012-shepherd-1183-9.pdf &#8211; which, combining an ensemble of satellite altimetry, interferometry, and gravimetry data sets, showed that Antarctica, between 1992 and 2011, was undergoing negative mass ice balance and contributing to SLR, while Zwally et al 2015 showed a positive mass balance from Antarctica and reduced sea level from 1992 to 2008. The Shepherd et al paper was published in 2012, but included later data than the Zwally et al 2015 paper. Why did Zwally and Yi sign on the the Shepherd et al paper including data up to 2011, and then later submit a paper contradicting the Shepherd et al conclusions, but whose data extended only to 2008?</p>
<p>The starting date for both papers was 1992. The Shepherd et al paper included European Remote-Sensing (ERS-1 and ERS-2), which spanned from May 1992 to September 2010. The Zwally et al 2015 paper also included those data, but only included data from 1992 up to 2001. The Shepherd et al 2012 paper also included Envisat data, the Zwally et al paper did not. Both studies included ICESat data from 2003 to 2008. The Shepherd et al study also included GRACE data. So the Shepherd ensemble of data sets was definitely more inclusive, both in terms of data and the time interval covered. </p>
<p>The Shepherd et al study found that Antarctica as a whole, lost 1350 ± 1010 Gt of ice, whereas Zwally et al show an average gain of 82 ± 25 Gt per year from ICESat data (2003-2008), and an average gain of 112 ± 61 Gt per year from ERS data. The Shepherd et al interpretation of the data show an annual contribution to SLR from Antarctica from 1992 to 2011, but the Zwally et al interpretation of the data, which is a subset of the Shepherd data set ensemble, show an annual reduction in sea level from Antarctica from 1992 to 2008.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473505</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2015 17:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473505</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I’m so tired of the mental gymnastics that climate change deniers go through when the evidence goes against their proclamations, which are almost exclusively based on self-centered wishful thinking that can be tweaked to support any conclusion that the denier desires. Global temps have not leveled off since 1940. The Arctic is melting not increasing. As the NASA study points out, since 1992 this has been increasing sea levels, undercutting one of the basic global conspiracy alarmist Book of Revulsions versions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m so tired of the mental gymnastics that climate change deniers go through when the evidence goes against their proclamations, which are almost exclusively based on self-centered wishful thinking that can be tweaked to support any conclusion that the denier desires. Global temps have not leveled off since 1940. The Arctic is melting not increasing. As the NASA study points out, since 1992 this has been increasing sea levels, undercutting one of the basic global conspiracy alarmist Book of Revulsions versions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: BBD		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473504</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BBD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473504</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Questions for michael goodwin:

During the last interglacial (Eemian ~130 - 115ka BP) mean sea level peaked at &#062;6m above present values. The Eemian was, on average, 1 - 2C warmer than the present. 

1/ Why was sea level &#062;6m higher than the present?

2/ Where did the water come from?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Questions for michael goodwin:</p>
<p>During the last interglacial (Eemian ~130 &#8211; 115ka BP) mean sea level peaked at &gt;6m above present values. The Eemian was, on average, 1 &#8211; 2C warmer than the present. </p>
<p>1/ Why was sea level &gt;6m higher than the present?</p>
<p>2/ Where did the water come from?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Desertphile		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473503</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Desertphile]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473503</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Okay, so I Googled &quot;global alarmists&quot; to see what that/they is/are. This is what I found:

http://rightwingnews.com/climate-change/take-that-global-alarmists-according-to-a-nasa-study-antarctica-is-growing-not-shrinking/

The first two sentences: &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;NASA is having to eat its own words. They’ve come up with satellite data that shows the arctic ice is growing, not shrinking.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;

Heh. I don&#039;t recall Arctic ice being mentioned in the study. No where is the phrase &quot;global alarmists&quot; defined.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, so I Googled &#8220;global alarmists&#8221; to see what that/they is/are. This is what I found:</p>
<p><a href="http://rightwingnews.com/climate-change/take-that-global-alarmists-according-to-a-nasa-study-antarctica-is-growing-not-shrinking/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://rightwingnews.com/climate-change/take-that-global-alarmists-according-to-a-nasa-study-antarctica-is-growing-not-shrinking/</a></p>
<p>The first two sentences: <b><i>&#8220;NASA is having to eat its own words. They’ve come up with satellite data that shows the arctic ice is growing, not shrinking.&#8221;</i></b></p>
<p>Heh. I don&#8217;t recall Arctic ice being mentioned in the study. No where is the phrase &#8220;global alarmists&#8221; defined.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Desertphile		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473502</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Desertphile]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=21754#comment-473502</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473501&quot;&gt;John Russell&lt;/a&gt;.

John Russell: &lt;b&gt;&quot;... accepting with open arms every new study they think* supports their denial cause and ....&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

Denialists also love to insist computer models are utterly worthless, always wrong, and unreliable... until they discover a computer model that they believe supports their politics.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/11/03/nasa-study-of-antarctic-ice-melt-misunderstood/#comment-473501">John Russell</a>.</p>
<p>John Russell: <b>&#8220;&#8230; accepting with open arms every new study they think* supports their denial cause and &#8230;.&#8221;</b></p>
<p>Denialists also love to insist computer models are utterly worthless, always wrong, and unreliable&#8230; until they discover a computer model that they believe supports their politics.</p>
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