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	Comments on: The significance of the new East Asian fossil human Penghu 1	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Mohammad		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475243</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mohammad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2016 15:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475243</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for the post.
I believe in creation and perhaps the following website provides some useful information 
&lt;strong&gt;
[Link to anti science site deteted as per blog policy.]&lt;/strong&gt;

Thanks]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the post.<br />
I believe in creation and perhaps the following website provides some useful information<br />
<strong><br />
[Link to anti science site deteted as per blog policy.]</strong></p>
<p>Thanks</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475242</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2015 14:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475242</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[First, there is the lamp post effect.  The Eastern Rift is very good at preserving material, and the NE Rift has excellent debated deposits.  

There is a nearly fully modern human skull from southern Africa that is associated with material that may be about 385,000 years old, but the date is not secure. If that date turns out to be correct, then suddenly we have to change your assertion to say that modern humans arose in Southern Africa, not NE Africa.  One skull with one good date could do that. There is archaeological evidence that major changes in cognitive abilities happened with the origin of the MSA.  The ESA/MSA transition is dated everywhere to close to 250K.  But a key feature of the MSA, that makes us think about important cognitive changes, is also found in the ESA at closer to 400K in southern Africa, and is absent in E. Africa. So, again, a very valid interpretation of the record shows the origin of modern humans being older in S and not E Africa.  

I&#039;m not saying that modern humans arose in S. Africa. I&#039;m saying something more conservative: That you can&#039;t assume NE Africa.  

That is what the fossil and archaeological record requires us to consider.  Similar arguments can be made about earlier time periods and other &quot;branches&quot; of human/human ancestor.  

More evidence v.s. less evidence is not evidence of anything but differential taphonomy.  Earlier evidence vs. clear lack of earlier evidence when there could be earlier evidence is the only thing you can use to infer origins at this scale of geography. The vast majority of Africa is utterly unknown wrt early hominins.  Your argument requires that early hominins or early h. sapiens knew our best evidence would come from the volcanically active E Rift, so they clustered there to keep their amazing evolutionary story in line with the preservational environment. If only!

Cheers,

G]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, there is the lamp post effect.  The Eastern Rift is very good at preserving material, and the NE Rift has excellent debated deposits.  </p>
<p>There is a nearly fully modern human skull from southern Africa that is associated with material that may be about 385,000 years old, but the date is not secure. If that date turns out to be correct, then suddenly we have to change your assertion to say that modern humans arose in Southern Africa, not NE Africa.  One skull with one good date could do that. There is archaeological evidence that major changes in cognitive abilities happened with the origin of the MSA.  The ESA/MSA transition is dated everywhere to close to 250K.  But a key feature of the MSA, that makes us think about important cognitive changes, is also found in the ESA at closer to 400K in southern Africa, and is absent in E. Africa. So, again, a very valid interpretation of the record shows the origin of modern humans being older in S and not E Africa.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that modern humans arose in S. Africa. I&#8217;m saying something more conservative: That you can&#8217;t assume NE Africa.  </p>
<p>That is what the fossil and archaeological record requires us to consider.  Similar arguments can be made about earlier time periods and other &#8220;branches&#8221; of human/human ancestor.  </p>
<p>More evidence v.s. less evidence is not evidence of anything but differential taphonomy.  Earlier evidence vs. clear lack of earlier evidence when there could be earlier evidence is the only thing you can use to infer origins at this scale of geography. The vast majority of Africa is utterly unknown wrt early hominins.  Your argument requires that early hominins or early h. sapiens knew our best evidence would come from the volcanically active E Rift, so they clustered there to keep their amazing evolutionary story in line with the preservational environment. If only!</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>G</p>
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		<title>
		By: Frasiel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475241</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frasiel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2015 14:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475241</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[W#20

Would disagree Greg, Ethiopia, Eretria the valley of Awash 
is where our particular branch on the hominin bush and its various other now extinct twigs (like the Neanderthals)  originated. There&#039;s more evidence there in north-east 
Africa than elsewhere on this small planet, for our perilous 
origins as an inquisitive opportunist biped with love 
of running...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>W#20</p>
<p>Would disagree Greg, Ethiopia, Eretria the valley of Awash<br />
is where our particular branch on the hominin bush and its various other now extinct twigs (like the Neanderthals)  originated. There&#8217;s more evidence there in north-east<br />
Africa than elsewhere on this small planet, for our perilous<br />
origins as an inquisitive opportunist biped with love<br />
of running&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475240</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475240</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Frasiel, you statement is not supported by the evidence. Broaden that geography to include eastern and southern Africa and you are likely correct. In the future this could be narrowed down but not yet.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frasiel, you statement is not supported by the evidence. Broaden that geography to include eastern and southern Africa and you are likely correct. In the future this could be narrowed down but not yet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<title>
		By: Frasiel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475239</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frasiel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475239</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Intriguing...  but only one branch on the hominin bush, made it to the present day, the ones in north-east Africa, the ones
who left their bones in the valley of the Awash.  No matter
how many remains of the other branches on the bush pop 
up in the far-east or in southern Africa, only one branch 
gave rise to the species of which one only survives today.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intriguing&#8230;  but only one branch on the hominin bush, made it to the present day, the ones in north-east Africa, the ones<br />
who left their bones in the valley of the Awash.  No matter<br />
how many remains of the other branches on the bush pop<br />
up in the far-east or in southern Africa, only one branch<br />
gave rise to the species of which one only survives today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475238</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2015 18:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475238</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475237&quot;&gt;Mark Luce&lt;/a&gt;.

Aha, good question! I should have been more clear, or maybe, less clear.

It does not look like the grade of hominid we assume (rightfully) Denisovans would have been given what we know about their genetic relationships to modern humans and neanderthals, etc.  It is speculative without actual morphology, but Denisovans should look like an archaic Homo Sapiens. Thus &quot;It does not look like Neanderthal or so called Denisovan.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475237">Mark Luce</a>.</p>
<p>Aha, good question! I should have been more clear, or maybe, less clear.</p>
<p>It does not look like the grade of hominid we assume (rightfully) Denisovans would have been given what we know about their genetic relationships to modern humans and neanderthals, etc.  It is speculative without actual morphology, but Denisovans should look like an archaic Homo Sapiens. Thus &#8220;It does not look like Neanderthal or so called Denisovan.&#8221;</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Mark Luce		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475237</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Luce]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2015 17:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475237</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How do we know that Penghu 1 &quot;does not look...Denisovan&quot;?

My understanding is that the only fossilized remains we have of Densiovans are a few finger bones, from which the amazing genetic analysis was done. My understanding is that we know very little about the MORPHOLOGY of Denisovans. 

Can someone explain this comment?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do we know that Penghu 1 &#8220;does not look&#8230;Denisovan&#8221;?</p>
<p>My understanding is that the only fossilized remains we have of Densiovans are a few finger bones, from which the amazing genetic analysis was done. My understanding is that we know very little about the MORPHOLOGY of Denisovans. </p>
<p>Can someone explain this comment?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Out of the Earth, Out of the Blue &#8211; Page 3.14		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475236</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Out of the Earth, Out of the Blue &#8211; Page 3.14]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475236</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Laden reports on a hominid fossil &#8220;recovered from the seabed near Taiwan&#8221; which reveals new levels of dental diversity among proto-humans and may qualify as a new species. Greg says the specimen known as Penghu &#8220;is yet another [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Laden reports on a hominid fossil &#8220;recovered from the seabed near Taiwan&#8221; which reveals new levels of dental diversity among proto-humans and may qualify as a new species. Greg says the specimen known as Penghu &#8220;is yet another [&#8230;]</p>
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			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475235</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2015 23:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475235</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475234&quot;&gt;marc verhaegen&lt;/a&gt;.

That&#039;s crazy.  I mean, you might be totally wrong, but that is not a reason to kill the comment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475234">marc verhaegen</a>.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s crazy.  I mean, you might be totally wrong, but that is not a reason to kill the comment.</p>
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		<title>
		By: marc verhaegen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2015/01/27/penghu_1_fossil_hominid_asia/#comment-475234</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[marc verhaegen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2015 19:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20838#comment-475234</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A few days ago I sent this to Nature Communications: 
&quot;Thanks a lot for this exciting paper. The supplementary information suggests this archaic Homo (Penghu 1) dwelt in &quot;marshlands in a hot and humid climate ... relatively wet environments with rivers, ponds and/or lakes ... relatively open wet woodland&quot;, e.g. Trionyx are soft-shell freshwater turtles in lakes, estuaria and large rivers, and Chinemys are semi-aquatic pond turtles in marshes, relatively shallow ponds, streams and canals with muddy or sandy bottoms.  This once more confirms that Pleistocene Homo did not run over open plains or savannas as many paleo-anthropologists still assume (the Endurance Running hypothesis is paleontologically and physiologically impossible, google &quot;original econiche Homo&quot;). Instead, archaic Homo simply followed the African and Eurasian coasts and large rivers, beach-combing, diving and wading bipedally for different sort of littoral, shallow aquatic and waterside foods, including molluscs, rich in brain-specific nutrients such as DHA (which helps explain Homo&#039;s drastic brain enlargement, see the work of Stephen Cunnane and Michael Crawford). This early-Pleistocene Coastal Dispersal model (term of Stephen Munro, who discovered the Javan shell engravings, see José Joordens cs 2014 doi 10.1038/nature13962) seems to be confirmed in several recent publications, e.g. Stephen Munro 2010 &quot;Molluscs as Ecological Indicators in Palaeoanthropological Contexts&quot; PhD thesis Austr.Nat.Univ Canberra; Mario Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 &quot;Was Man More Aquatic in the Past?&quot; Bentham Sci.Publ.eBook; the proceedings of the symposium on human waterside evolution ?Human Evolution: Past, Present and Future? (London 8-10 May 2013, with Peter Rhys Evans, Michael Crawford, David Attenborough and Don Johanson) in 2 special editions of Hum.Evol. (2013-2014); Marc Verhaegen and Stephen Munro 2011 &quot;Pachyosteosclerosis suggests archaic Homo frequently collected sessile littoral foods&quot; HOMO J.compar.hum.Biol. 62:237-247. For a summary of recent insight in Homo&#039;s waterside evolution, see my 2013 paper &quot;The aquatic ape evolves: common misconceptions and unproven assumptions about the so-called Aquatic Ape Hypothesis&quot; Hum.Evol.28:237-266, google &quot;researchGate marc verhaegen&quot;.&quot;
Today 14:59, I got this email from Nature Communications:
&quot;Dear Marc Verhaegen, The following post you wrote on the Nature Communications website has been approved by the moderator: &quot;(see above)&quot;. Thank you for contributing, -Nature Communications editors&quot;
10 minutes later, I got: 
&quot;Dear Marc Verhaegen, The following post you wrote on the Nature Communications website has been hidden by the moderator in accordance with our terms and conditions: &quot;(see above)&quot;. -Nature Communications editors&quot;
I&#039;m afraid PA minds (or at least their terms &#038; conditions) are still not ripe for discussing the possibility of a waterside human past...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few days ago I sent this to Nature Communications:<br />
&#8220;Thanks a lot for this exciting paper. The supplementary information suggests this archaic Homo (Penghu 1) dwelt in &#8220;marshlands in a hot and humid climate &#8230; relatively wet environments with rivers, ponds and/or lakes &#8230; relatively open wet woodland&#8221;, e.g. Trionyx are soft-shell freshwater turtles in lakes, estuaria and large rivers, and Chinemys are semi-aquatic pond turtles in marshes, relatively shallow ponds, streams and canals with muddy or sandy bottoms.  This once more confirms that Pleistocene Homo did not run over open plains or savannas as many paleo-anthropologists still assume (the Endurance Running hypothesis is paleontologically and physiologically impossible, google &#8220;original econiche Homo&#8221;). Instead, archaic Homo simply followed the African and Eurasian coasts and large rivers, beach-combing, diving and wading bipedally for different sort of littoral, shallow aquatic and waterside foods, including molluscs, rich in brain-specific nutrients such as DHA (which helps explain Homo&#8217;s drastic brain enlargement, see the work of Stephen Cunnane and Michael Crawford). This early-Pleistocene Coastal Dispersal model (term of Stephen Munro, who discovered the Javan shell engravings, see José Joordens cs 2014 doi 10.1038/nature13962) seems to be confirmed in several recent publications, e.g. Stephen Munro 2010 &#8220;Molluscs as Ecological Indicators in Palaeoanthropological Contexts&#8221; PhD thesis Austr.Nat.Univ Canberra; Mario Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 &#8220;Was Man More Aquatic in the Past?&#8221; Bentham Sci.Publ.eBook; the proceedings of the symposium on human waterside evolution ?Human Evolution: Past, Present and Future? (London 8-10 May 2013, with Peter Rhys Evans, Michael Crawford, David Attenborough and Don Johanson) in 2 special editions of Hum.Evol. (2013-2014); Marc Verhaegen and Stephen Munro 2011 &#8220;Pachyosteosclerosis suggests archaic Homo frequently collected sessile littoral foods&#8221; HOMO J.compar.hum.Biol. 62:237-247. For a summary of recent insight in Homo&#8217;s waterside evolution, see my 2013 paper &#8220;The aquatic ape evolves: common misconceptions and unproven assumptions about the so-called Aquatic Ape Hypothesis&#8221; Hum.Evol.28:237-266, google &#8220;researchGate marc verhaegen&#8221;.&#8221;<br />
Today 14:59, I got this email from Nature Communications:<br />
&#8220;Dear Marc Verhaegen, The following post you wrote on the Nature Communications website has been approved by the moderator: &#8220;(see above)&#8221;. Thank you for contributing, -Nature Communications editors&#8221;<br />
10 minutes later, I got:<br />
&#8220;Dear Marc Verhaegen, The following post you wrote on the Nature Communications website has been hidden by the moderator in accordance with our terms and conditions: &#8220;(see above)&#8221;. -Nature Communications editors&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;m afraid PA minds (or at least their terms &amp; conditions) are still not ripe for discussing the possibility of a waterside human past&#8230;</p>
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