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	Comments on: The Ebola Test: Civilization Fails	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Buck Field		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483398</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Buck Field]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483398</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483396&quot;&gt;jane&lt;/a&gt;.

Jane, I would assert that reason and logic can &quot;dictate&quot; decisions based on the existence of tools which have been designed to help us with just such problems.

In the field of portfolio management for example, (a type of decision science), it is the job of people in my line of work to advise leaders on how to make such evaluations.

In fact, your post points out examples of some of the critical factors, such as relative risk-aversion bias, probabilities of future states of nature, and downside risk severity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483396">jane</a>.</p>
<p>Jane, I would assert that reason and logic can &#8220;dictate&#8221; decisions based on the existence of tools which have been designed to help us with just such problems.</p>
<p>In the field of portfolio management for example, (a type of decision science), it is the job of people in my line of work to advise leaders on how to make such evaluations.</p>
<p>In fact, your post points out examples of some of the critical factors, such as relative risk-aversion bias, probabilities of future states of nature, and downside risk severity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483397</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 03:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483397</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mother Nature will, um, &quot;bake it out of us&quot;, Craig.

Well, I hope not.  But that&#039;s not rational, I suppose.  Given the evidence of sufficient mitigation action being taken...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mother Nature will, um, &#8220;bake it out of us&#8221;, Craig.</p>
<p>Well, I hope not.  But that&#8217;s not rational, I suppose.  Given the evidence of sufficient mitigation action being taken&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: jane		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 03:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483396</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is why I have a problem with the binary label of Rational vs Irrational; it&#039;s so often used as a cudgel against anyone who doesn&#039;t agree with the speaker.  Is it rational to buy insurance?  If your goal is to maximize the statistically average amount of money you will end up with - not my goal in life, but what some economists and their ilk in other contexts seem to think is the only thing that counts - then no, it is not!  After all, the premiums charged by your home or life insurance company include all the costs an average policy-holder will incur, plus a fat profit.  That means that the average policyholder, like the average casino gambler, must lose money.  (Note that car insurance is different in that an auto driver risks inflicting a future loss on an unconsenting third party, which he is morally and legally bound to pay to alleviate.  I speak only of insurance that is meant to protect the policyholder himself or his own family.)

OTOH:  if your goal is to avoid the possibility of incurring devastating financial losses, even by accepting the certainty of a much smaller loss, then it is totally rational to buy insurance.  But what if you have a working-class income and have a certain amount of money that can be used to protect you against some possible future loss or to meet real current needs, but not both?  Then you have a value judgement to make, just as you did in making the original decision to prefer risk-avoidance over average ultimate savings.  The same applies to decisions about playing the lottery, or accepting medical interventions that save a few lives while causing nonfatal harm to many more, or any number of situations in which reasonable people&#039;s goals might conflict.  Neither logic nor Reason can dictate which goals we should prefer; they only help us pursue the goals we have settled upon, with the aid of our emotions and values, more efficiently.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why I have a problem with the binary label of Rational vs Irrational; it&#8217;s so often used as a cudgel against anyone who doesn&#8217;t agree with the speaker.  Is it rational to buy insurance?  If your goal is to maximize the statistically average amount of money you will end up with &#8211; not my goal in life, but what some economists and their ilk in other contexts seem to think is the only thing that counts &#8211; then no, it is not!  After all, the premiums charged by your home or life insurance company include all the costs an average policy-holder will incur, plus a fat profit.  That means that the average policyholder, like the average casino gambler, must lose money.  (Note that car insurance is different in that an auto driver risks inflicting a future loss on an unconsenting third party, which he is morally and legally bound to pay to alleviate.  I speak only of insurance that is meant to protect the policyholder himself or his own family.)</p>
<p>OTOH:  if your goal is to avoid the possibility of incurring devastating financial losses, even by accepting the certainty of a much smaller loss, then it is totally rational to buy insurance.  But what if you have a working-class income and have a certain amount of money that can be used to protect you against some possible future loss or to meet real current needs, but not both?  Then you have a value judgement to make, just as you did in making the original decision to prefer risk-avoidance over average ultimate savings.  The same applies to decisions about playing the lottery, or accepting medical interventions that save a few lives while causing nonfatal harm to many more, or any number of situations in which reasonable people&#8217;s goals might conflict.  Neither logic nor Reason can dictate which goals we should prefer; they only help us pursue the goals we have settled upon, with the aid of our emotions and values, more efficiently.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Craig Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483395</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 02:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483395</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Buck:
&quot;any motivation at all could be plausibly categorized as irrational, if we regard motivation as a desire.&quot;

Great observation.

This has been the natural state of thinking in our species. Only in the last 350 years has a movement developed which aimed  to convert the natural human thinking process to a new method which aims to discard irrationality in favour of an objective  scientific method.
A million years of evolution is not going to vanish quite so quickly.
It is notable that even today, a scientist is capable of, for example, running an irrational anti-science blog where right-wing fruitloops and their nutty ideas are courted and rational objective scientists and their science are denigrated.
If a trained scientist can behave like this, what hope for the rest of humanity?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buck:<br />
&#8220;any motivation at all could be plausibly categorized as irrational, if we regard motivation as a desire.&#8221;</p>
<p>Great observation.</p>
<p>This has been the natural state of thinking in our species. Only in the last 350 years has a movement developed which aimed  to convert the natural human thinking process to a new method which aims to discard irrationality in favour of an objective  scientific method.<br />
A million years of evolution is not going to vanish quite so quickly.<br />
It is notable that even today, a scientist is capable of, for example, running an irrational anti-science blog where right-wing fruitloops and their nutty ideas are courted and rational objective scientists and their science are denigrated.<br />
If a trained scientist can behave like this, what hope for the rest of humanity?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Craig Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483394</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 02:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483394</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A schizophrenic might even consciously modify his behaviour in order to deceive his doctor into a course of action such as reducing his prescription. The surface motivation is an unwillingness to submit to medication, leading to an apparently rational course of action, but the underlying motivation is a psychological condition known as &quot;denial&quot;, which is irrational.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A schizophrenic might even consciously modify his behaviour in order to deceive his doctor into a course of action such as reducing his prescription. The surface motivation is an unwillingness to submit to medication, leading to an apparently rational course of action, but the underlying motivation is a psychological condition known as &#8220;denial&#8221;, which is irrational.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Craig Thomas		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 02:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I really don&#039;t think that pointing at some large error bars on some of the results of rational, fact-based analysis in order to assert  &quot;uncertainty&quot; as a prescription for inaction is in any way rational.

Don&#039;t forget - error bars cut both ways, and this is what the anti-science mob refuses to accept.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t think that pointing at some large error bars on some of the results of rational, fact-based analysis in order to assert  &#8220;uncertainty&#8221; as a prescription for inaction is in any way rational.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t forget &#8211; error bars cut both ways, and this is what the anti-science mob refuses to accept.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483392</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 01:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483392</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been asserting that there is no universal, absolute way to define or use &quot;rational&quot;.  it&#039;s too subjective and &quot;in the eye of the decider&quot;.

A schizophrenic may think he&#039;s rational -- but his therapist would not agree.  Someone watching their discussion would likely choose sides on this issue.  Who&#039;s correct?

So I suggest that planning for ways to mitigate undesirable events that have a (perceived) significant chance of occurring is being rational.  Denying that there is any need to address this *in the face of evidence to the contrary* (first- or second-hand) is irrational.

In the U.S., there are laws that compel automobile drivers to purchase insurance even if they are irrational enough to deny that there is significant risk involved in driving.  There is too much evidence at hand.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been asserting that there is no universal, absolute way to define or use &#8220;rational&#8221;.  it&#8217;s too subjective and &#8220;in the eye of the decider&#8221;.</p>
<p>A schizophrenic may think he&#8217;s rational &#8212; but his therapist would not agree.  Someone watching their discussion would likely choose sides on this issue.  Who&#8217;s correct?</p>
<p>So I suggest that planning for ways to mitigate undesirable events that have a (perceived) significant chance of occurring is being rational.  Denying that there is any need to address this *in the face of evidence to the contrary* (first- or second-hand) is irrational.</p>
<p>In the U.S., there are laws that compel automobile drivers to purchase insurance even if they are irrational enough to deny that there is significant risk involved in driving.  There is too much evidence at hand.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Buck Field		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Buck Field]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 01:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You are still asserting the quality in question: rationality.

What is the criteria we use for a decision to qualify as &quot;rational&quot;?

Bigfoot &#038; ghost hunters can (and do) plan long term.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are still asserting the quality in question: rationality.</p>
<p>What is the criteria we use for a decision to qualify as &#8220;rational&#8221;?</p>
<p>Bigfoot &amp; ghost hunters can (and do) plan long term.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483390</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 01:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483390</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The same point seems to hold for those in government charged with protecting against an Ebola epidemic.  Resistance to spending the money to create a sufficient in-place system to deal with the threat, vs &quot;I don&#039;t want to spend the money&quot; to ensure public safety.

The &quot;it can&#039;t happen to us&quot; mentality.  Just like AGW deniers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same point seems to hold for those in government charged with protecting against an Ebola epidemic.  Resistance to spending the money to create a sufficient in-place system to deal with the threat, vs &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to spend the money&#8221; to ensure public safety.</p>
<p>The &#8220;it can&#8217;t happen to us&#8221; mentality.  Just like AGW deniers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/10/05/the-ebola-test-civilization-fails/#comment-483389</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 01:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20447#comment-483389</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If it is rational to purchase insurance (i.e., planning for an uncertain outcome), then the &quot;large error bars&quot; should call for &quot;purchasing insurance&quot; to cover those unknown consequences when it comes to what climate change may bring.  Especially when high stakes are involved.

In this case, we need not worry about the Goldilocks problem; we acknowledge that there exists risk of (great) loss, and so we spend money (in the form of public policy) to mitigate what research indicates has a significant chance of happening.

The deniers are of the camp &quot;I don&#039;t want to buy insurance, I&#039;d rather spend the money on myself.&quot;  Short-term thinking, but may have catastrophic long-term consequences.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it is rational to purchase insurance (i.e., planning for an uncertain outcome), then the &#8220;large error bars&#8221; should call for &#8220;purchasing insurance&#8221; to cover those unknown consequences when it comes to what climate change may bring.  Especially when high stakes are involved.</p>
<p>In this case, we need not worry about the Goldilocks problem; we acknowledge that there exists risk of (great) loss, and so we spend money (in the form of public policy) to mitigate what research indicates has a significant chance of happening.</p>
<p>The deniers are of the camp &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to buy insurance, I&#8217;d rather spend the money on myself.&#8221;  Short-term thinking, but may have catastrophic long-term consequences.</p>
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