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	<title>
	Comments on: Anti-Science NRO and CEI File New Briefs, Get It Wrong Again	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482799</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482799</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Over at ClimateAudit (under the JeanS post that inspired the long comment thread here on Greg Laden&#039;s blog), Tom Fuller tries to make a distinction between saying Dr. Mann&#039;s work is fraudulent and calling him a fraud. Evidently Fuller feels the former accusation is not actionable.

I am not a lawyer and it may be that case law recognizes some distinction between these accusations. But the way I see it, Fuller&#039;s claim is a distinction without a difference. I would hope the law sees it the same way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over at ClimateAudit (under the JeanS post that inspired the long comment thread here on Greg Laden&#8217;s blog), Tom Fuller tries to make a distinction between saying Dr. Mann&#8217;s work is fraudulent and calling him a fraud. Evidently Fuller feels the former accusation is not actionable.</p>
<p>I am not a lawyer and it may be that case law recognizes some distinction between these accusations. But the way I see it, Fuller&#8217;s claim is a distinction without a difference. I would hope the law sees it the same way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: cosmicomics		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482798</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cosmicomics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482798</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[http://environmentalforest.blogspot.dk/2013/10/enough-hockey-sticks-for-team.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://environmentalforest.blogspot.dk/2013/10/enough-hockey-sticks-for-team.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://environmentalforest.blogspot.dk/2013/10/enough-hockey-sticks-for-team.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: cosmicomics		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482797</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cosmicomics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482797</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“...a hockey stick laying on its back.”

Lay is transitive – it takes an object.
Lie is intransitive – it doesn&#039;t take an object.

Laying a hockey stick on its back describes an action done to the hockey stick.
A hockey stick lying on its back describes a state, a condition. No one is doing anything to the hockey stick.

So here you want lie, not lay. (If you tell your pets to lay down you&#039;ll confuse them. They expect you to say, “Lie down.”)

__________________________________________________

I&#039;m not qualified to understand the niceties of M&#038;M&#039;s complaints against the original hockey stick. What I do understand is that MBH99 was a pioneer work, and that its shortcomings had no effect on the validity of its results, which have been corroborated again and again by other scientists using other methods.
http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick

What I also understand is that the fervent opposition to the hockey stick and the resulting vilification of Mann have little to do with valid scientific objections, but everything to do with the inconvenient visual strength and simplicity of the graph as a portrayal of unprecedented warming.

The libels were probably made with the assumption that they could be made with impunity. It&#039;s good for all of us that Mann has defended himself as forcefully as he has.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“&#8230;a hockey stick laying on its back.”</p>
<p>Lay is transitive – it takes an object.<br />
Lie is intransitive – it doesn&#8217;t take an object.</p>
<p>Laying a hockey stick on its back describes an action done to the hockey stick.<br />
A hockey stick lying on its back describes a state, a condition. No one is doing anything to the hockey stick.</p>
<p>So here you want lie, not lay. (If you tell your pets to lay down you&#8217;ll confuse them. They expect you to say, “Lie down.”)</p>
<p>__________________________________________________</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not qualified to understand the niceties of M&amp;M&#8217;s complaints against the original hockey stick. What I do understand is that MBH99 was a pioneer work, and that its shortcomings had no effect on the validity of its results, which have been corroborated again and again by other scientists using other methods.<br />
<a href="http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick" rel="nofollow ugc">http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick</a></p>
<p>What I also understand is that the fervent opposition to the hockey stick and the resulting vilification of Mann have little to do with valid scientific objections, but everything to do with the inconvenient visual strength and simplicity of the graph as a portrayal of unprecedented warming.</p>
<p>The libels were probably made with the assumption that they could be made with impunity. It&#8217;s good for all of us that Mann has defended himself as forcefully as he has.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rob Honeycutt		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482796</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rob Honeycutt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 18:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482796</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I sense a level of desperation on the part of CEI with this recent filing. It&#039;s going to be very interesting to read the judge&#039;s response.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sense a level of desperation on the part of CEI with this recent filing. It&#8217;s going to be very interesting to read the judge&#8217;s response.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brainstorms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482795</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brainstorms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 18:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482795</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s the crux of the problem: There&#039;s been so much other paleoclimate research since then and the broad conclusions are pretty clear.

They feel a desperate need to apply more mud to increase obscurity.

It would be hilarious that they actually think this will make AGW go away -- if it weren&#039;t for the fact that their actions are not only failing to make it go away, they&#039;re actually making it worse.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the crux of the problem: There&#8217;s been so much other paleoclimate research since then and the broad conclusions are pretty clear.</p>
<p>They feel a desperate need to apply more mud to increase obscurity.</p>
<p>It would be hilarious that they actually think this will make AGW go away &#8212; if it weren&#8217;t for the fact that their actions are not only failing to make it go away, they&#8217;re actually making it worse.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Aaron Huertas		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482794</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Huertas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482794</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Greg. One of the other aspects of this that is so striking to me is that we&#039;re still arguing about a fifteen-year-old-study. There&#039;s been so much other paleoclimate research since then and the broad conclusions are pretty clear.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Greg. One of the other aspects of this that is so striking to me is that we&#8217;re still arguing about a fifteen-year-old-study. There&#8217;s been so much other paleoclimate research since then and the broad conclusions are pretty clear.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/09/29/anti-science-nro-and-cei-file-new-briefs-get-it-wrong-again/#comment-482793</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=20403#comment-482793</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;They also write the National Science Foundation “did not conduct an investigation of Mann’s data practices or research because it determined that ‘no direct evidence has been presented that indicates the Subject fabricated the raw data he used for his research or falsified his results.’”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So they are upset because there was not an investigation of how he did something there was no evidence he did? Is that really the crux of this bit? Is that a sign of how desperate they are or of the low quality of their legal representation?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>They also write the National Science Foundation “did not conduct an investigation of Mann’s data practices or research because it determined that ‘no direct evidence has been presented that indicates the Subject fabricated the raw data he used for his research or falsified his results.’”</p></blockquote>
<p>So they are upset because there was not an investigation of how he did something there was no evidence he did? Is that really the crux of this bit? Is that a sign of how desperate they are or of the low quality of their legal representation?</p>
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