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	Comments on: How fast can sea level go up with Polar Ice Cap melt?	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Another Week in the Ecological Crisis, June 8, 2014 &#8211; A Few Things Ill Considered		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480545</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Another Week in the Ecological Crisis, June 8, 2014 &#8211; A Few Things Ill Considered]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2014 14:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480545</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] 2014/06/04: GLaden: How fast can sea level go up with Polar Ice Cap melt? [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] 2014/06/04: GLaden: How fast can sea level go up with Polar Ice Cap melt? [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hank Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480544</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hank Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2014 05:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480544</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062; drifts to the bottom

Or maybe we need those deep sea fish after all:

http://qz.com/216826/fish-can-slow-down-global-warming-but-not-if-we-keep-eating-them/
&quot;... Until now, scientists have chalked it up mainly to gravity—to the sinking of phytoplankton that have either died or been eaten and excreted by fish. But new research reveals that we have deep-sea fish to thank for transferring a lot of that carbon into the depths—and that sinking alone wouldn’t do the trick.

In fact, bottom-dwellers transfer more than a million tonnes of CO2 a year from surface waters of the UK and Ireland, ... says a new study (paywall) by a University of Southampton team. Killing too many of those fishes, as well as the ones they feed on, risks damaging the ocean’s ability to store carbon, leaving more CO2 in the atmosphere....&quot;

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1787/20140669.abstract
&quot;... mid-water and bentho-pelagic-feeding demersal fishes play an important role in the ocean carbon cycle, bypassing the detrital particle flux and transferring carbon to deep long-term storage. &quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; drifts to the bottom</p>
<p>Or maybe we need those deep sea fish after all:</p>
<p><a href="http://qz.com/216826/fish-can-slow-down-global-warming-but-not-if-we-keep-eating-them/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://qz.com/216826/fish-can-slow-down-global-warming-but-not-if-we-keep-eating-them/</a><br />
&#8220;&#8230; Until now, scientists have chalked it up mainly to gravity—to the sinking of phytoplankton that have either died or been eaten and excreted by fish. But new research reveals that we have deep-sea fish to thank for transferring a lot of that carbon into the depths—and that sinking alone wouldn’t do the trick.</p>
<p>In fact, bottom-dwellers transfer more than a million tonnes of CO2 a year from surface waters of the UK and Ireland, &#8230; says a new study (paywall) by a University of Southampton team. Killing too many of those fishes, as well as the ones they feed on, risks damaging the ocean’s ability to store carbon, leaving more CO2 in the atmosphere&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1787/20140669.abstract" rel="nofollow ugc">http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1787/20140669.abstract</a><br />
&#8220;&#8230; mid-water and bentho-pelagic-feeding demersal fishes play an important role in the ocean carbon cycle, bypassing the detrital particle flux and transferring carbon to deep long-term storage. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480543</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2014 00:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480543</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This isn&#039;t necessarily one of the great extinctions. Just the occasional multi million year period of an anoxic se hear or there.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn&#8217;t necessarily one of the great extinctions. Just the occasional multi million year period of an anoxic se hear or there.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hank Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480542</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hank Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2014 22:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480542</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[ah (that was fast !) -- ok, I understand that; I had thought the past great extinctions involved the photosynthesizers as well.  Perhaps that happened but later, when hydrogen sulfide reached the surface as Peter Ward wrote about a while back?  Thanks for the pointer, I&#039;ll try to catch up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ah (that was fast !) &#8212; ok, I understand that; I had thought the past great extinctions involved the photosynthesizers as well.  Perhaps that happened but later, when hydrogen sulfide reached the surface as Peter Ward wrote about a while back?  Thanks for the pointer, I&#8217;ll try to catch up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480541</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2014 22:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If an ocean basin becomes anoxic, surface productivity continues (though we don&#039;t know at what rate) but a large part of the output of that productivity which would normally cycle in the global biosphere and short term carbon cycle drifts to the bottom of the sea and become future hydrocarbon reserves.

A good amount of the oil and gas used over the last century, for example, is the product of an anoxic Tethys ocean which produced what later came to nearer the surface in places like the Arabian Peninsula and the oil and gas in the mountain ranges and valleys east of that region in, for example, Pakistan.

A great recent work that covers this and much more ... the long geological view of the quarter of the globe of concern,  is here: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/12/17/the-amazing-and-compelling-story-of-the-tethys-sea/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If an ocean basin becomes anoxic, surface productivity continues (though we don&#8217;t know at what rate) but a large part of the output of that productivity which would normally cycle in the global biosphere and short term carbon cycle drifts to the bottom of the sea and become future hydrocarbon reserves.</p>
<p>A good amount of the oil and gas used over the last century, for example, is the product of an anoxic Tethys ocean which produced what later came to nearer the surface in places like the Arabian Peninsula and the oil and gas in the mountain ranges and valleys east of that region in, for example, Pakistan.</p>
<p>A great recent work that covers this and much more &#8230; the long geological view of the quarter of the globe of concern,  is here: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/12/17/the-amazing-and-compelling-story-of-the-tethys-sea/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/12/17/the-amazing-and-compelling-story-of-the-tethys-sea/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Hank Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480540</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hank Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2014 21:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480540</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062;  if we ruin the chemistry of the ocean and with mass
&#062; extinction it becomes a carbon sink

What?  Citation for that?  I&#039;d thought primary productivity was expected to collapse along with the ecosystems?

We&#039;ve only known about prochlorococcus since 1989, and it&#039;s the reason we&#039;re breathing -- are you assuming a mass extinction wouldn&#039;t affect photosynthesis in the oceans?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10066832

and
http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/13-0421.1
&quot;Ecosystem-wide primary productivity generally increases with primary producer diversity, emphasizing the importance of diversity for ecosystem function....&quot;
Nicole L. Goebel, Christopher A. Edwards, Michael J. Follows, and Jonathan P. Zehr 2014. Modeled diversity effects on microbial ecosystem functions of primary production, nutrient uptake, and remineralization. Ecology 153. http://dx.doi.org/10.1890/13-0421.1]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;  if we ruin the chemistry of the ocean and with mass<br />
&gt; extinction it becomes a carbon sink</p>
<p>What?  Citation for that?  I&#8217;d thought primary productivity was expected to collapse along with the ecosystems?</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve only known about prochlorococcus since 1989, and it&#8217;s the reason we&#8217;re breathing &#8212; are you assuming a mass extinction wouldn&#8217;t affect photosynthesis in the oceans?<br />
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10066832" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10066832</a></p>
<p>and<br />
<a href="http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/13-0421.1" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/13-0421.1</a><br />
&#8220;Ecosystem-wide primary productivity generally increases with primary producer diversity, emphasizing the importance of diversity for ecosystem function&#8230;.&#8221;<br />
Nicole L. Goebel, Christopher A. Edwards, Michael J. Follows, and Jonathan P. Zehr 2014. Modeled diversity effects on microbial ecosystem functions of primary production, nutrient uptake, and remineralization. Ecology 153. <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1890/13-0421.1" rel="nofollow ugc">http://dx.doi.org/10.1890/13-0421.1</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Stevo Raine		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480539</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stevo Raine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480539</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Yale forum ones and earlier &lt;i&gt;(and still going) &lt;i&gt;Climate Denial Crock of the Week&lt;/i&gt; series are among my very favourite and most useful series on youtube - the eponymous blog is superb too - which had a major impact on changing my views on this issue a number of years ago. A series everyone should watch and learn from I reckon.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Yale forum ones and earlier <i>(and still going) </i><i>Climate Denial Crock of the Week</i> series are among my very favourite and most useful series on youtube &#8211; the eponymous blog is superb too &#8211; which had a major impact on changing my views on this issue a number of years ago. A series everyone should watch and learn from I reckon.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jesse		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480538</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480538</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As to Mr Wizard - the physics isn&#039;t that hard. The ice takes up more volume than water of the same mass. So if I have 100g of ice, it takes up ~110 cm^3, but once it melts that goes down to 100. So if I stick 100g of ice and add volume volume of water, once it melts you will have whatever the volume of water is plus 100 cm^3, even though the ice would jut out from the top of the glass.

So that&#039;s great as long as the volume of water and ice are relatively constant, and it applies to ice sheets on water. But it doesn&#039;t work if you add more ice from the land. And it ignores the fact that when you freeze water it stops flowing -- that&#039;s why sea levels drop during ice ages, the water is stuck at the poles. Conservation of mass still applies. There&#039;s a relatively fixed mass of water in the oceans and ice combined. It has to go someplace. We haven&#039;t even gotten to the effects of thermal expansion yet.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to Mr Wizard &#8211; the physics isn&#8217;t that hard. The ice takes up more volume than water of the same mass. So if I have 100g of ice, it takes up ~110 cm^3, but once it melts that goes down to 100. So if I stick 100g of ice and add volume volume of water, once it melts you will have whatever the volume of water is plus 100 cm^3, even though the ice would jut out from the top of the glass.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s great as long as the volume of water and ice are relatively constant, and it applies to ice sheets on water. But it doesn&#8217;t work if you add more ice from the land. And it ignores the fact that when you freeze water it stops flowing &#8212; that&#8217;s why sea levels drop during ice ages, the water is stuck at the poles. Conservation of mass still applies. There&#8217;s a relatively fixed mass of water in the oceans and ice combined. It has to go someplace. We haven&#8217;t even gotten to the effects of thermal expansion yet.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480537</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480537</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesse, you may be right about the carbon release from forests. On the other hand, if we ruin the chemistry of the ocean and with mass extinction it becomes a carbon sink (as has happened in the past) that will leave more room for the next generation (as in aliens that come to a post-human earth) supply of hydrocarbon fuels!

And, again, the thing people often forget and is not mentioned to any great extent here: If sea level goes up just a foot that can be disastrous. Remember that the sea does not go up. It goes across.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse, you may be right about the carbon release from forests. On the other hand, if we ruin the chemistry of the ocean and with mass extinction it becomes a carbon sink (as has happened in the past) that will leave more room for the next generation (as in aliens that come to a post-human earth) supply of hydrocarbon fuels!</p>
<p>And, again, the thing people often forget and is not mentioned to any great extent here: If sea level goes up just a foot that can be disastrous. Remember that the sea does not go up. It goes across.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2014/06/04/how-fast-can-sea-level-go-up-with-polar-ice-cap-melt/#comment-480536</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=19649#comment-480536</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This proves that Mr. Wizard is a charlatan and a liar!

The &quot;third theory&quot; is correct (and wrt climate change applies to SEA ICE not GLACIERS). Fine. The problem here is that the water plus ice, with the water height buoyancy corrected (by itself), fills the glass But that is tap water that has been further chilled by ice. It is very cold, down near freezing, but above freezing.  Room temperature is much warmer, and the temperature of a studio is perhaps even warmer. The water would have expanded and overflowed the glass.

This is why Mr. Wizard got rid of the kid ... so he could wipe up the overflow and pretend like he was right!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This proves that Mr. Wizard is a charlatan and a liar!</p>
<p>The &#8220;third theory&#8221; is correct (and wrt climate change applies to SEA ICE not GLACIERS). Fine. The problem here is that the water plus ice, with the water height buoyancy corrected (by itself), fills the glass But that is tap water that has been further chilled by ice. It is very cold, down near freezing, but above freezing.  Room temperature is much warmer, and the temperature of a studio is perhaps even warmer. The water would have expanded and overflowed the glass.</p>
<p>This is why Mr. Wizard got rid of the kid &#8230; so he could wipe up the overflow and pretend like he was right!</p>
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