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	Comments on: All we need to do to fix our system of education is &#8230;	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488955</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Aug 2013 14:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488955</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ron, your suggestions, &quot;B&quot; is what was done over the last couple of decades.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, your suggestions, &#8220;B&#8221; is what was done over the last couple of decades.</p>
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		By: ron		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488954</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Aug 2013 14:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488954</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A) Throw out the old system. It has failed.
B) Return power to the States/counties/districts...we should have thousands of independent laboratories where we are trying new methods, not one leviathan dominating all districts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A) Throw out the old system. It has failed.<br />
B) Return power to the States/counties/districts&#8230;we should have thousands of independent laboratories where we are trying new methods, not one leviathan dominating all districts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CherryBombSim		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488953</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CherryBombSim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Aug 2013 00:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488953</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The state did a pretty good job of providing an education to most people when I grew up in the 1960&#039;s and 1970&#039;s. The education bureaucracy has grown much more bloated in the meantime, so it soaks up most of any extra money one might throw at the problem. Charter schools do nothing to solve this problem, they just add a middleman to take a cut of public funds. 

I had a six month nightmare of doing business with the Dallas school district. The people there were so brazenly corrupt, at all levels, that I thought I was in a third-world country.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The state did a pretty good job of providing an education to most people when I grew up in the 1960&#8217;s and 1970&#8217;s. The education bureaucracy has grown much more bloated in the meantime, so it soaks up most of any extra money one might throw at the problem. Charter schools do nothing to solve this problem, they just add a middleman to take a cut of public funds. </p>
<p>I had a six month nightmare of doing business with the Dallas school district. The people there were so brazenly corrupt, at all levels, that I thought I was in a third-world country.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ron		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488952</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Aug 2013 03:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488952</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Give the private sector the chance to motivate and uphold consequences for students who try to skate by or mark time like they do in the public schools. The State cannot positively educate a society. It has to be done by people with a motive to keep their jobs, not via fraud, but with results.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Give the private sector the chance to motivate and uphold consequences for students who try to skate by or mark time like they do in the public schools. The State cannot positively educate a society. It has to be done by people with a motive to keep their jobs, not via fraud, but with results.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Aug 2013 17:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Privatization has been tried in the form of charter schools and similar programs.  In most cases the &quot;invisible hand of the market place&quot; did unspeakable things.  Privatization has been a failure other than in a for-profit sense in educating the elite.  Privatization is exactly a call for educating only the elite.  It is an evil and nefarious idea.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Privatization has been tried in the form of charter schools and similar programs.  In most cases the &#8220;invisible hand of the market place&#8221; did unspeakable things.  Privatization has been a failure other than in a for-profit sense in educating the elite.  Privatization is exactly a call for educating only the elite.  It is an evil and nefarious idea.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doug Alder		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488950</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Alder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488950</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Back in the early 70s I enrolled in the teacher training program at SFU - After 50 weeks I quit - 2 weeks shy of getting my certificate - I realized that the job was just too damned hard for this introvert to deal with. I have nothing but total respect for those who can do this job and do it well - they should be paid a lot more than they are. The old saying &quot;those who can do, those who can&#039;t teach&quot; is very, very wrong.  Those sorts do not generally make good teachers. It is not a &quot;fall back&quot; profession.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in the early 70s I enrolled in the teacher training program at SFU &#8211; After 50 weeks I quit &#8211; 2 weeks shy of getting my certificate &#8211; I realized that the job was just too damned hard for this introvert to deal with. I have nothing but total respect for those who can do this job and do it well &#8211; they should be paid a lot more than they are. The old saying &#8220;those who can do, those who can&#8217;t teach&#8221; is very, very wrong.  Those sorts do not generally make good teachers. It is not a &#8220;fall back&#8221; profession.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ron		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488949</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488949</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The State inefficiently allocates monies while obtaining declining results (#10 &#038; #11). Bureaucracy has poisoned education. The State can&#039;t educate the nation in a positive way. Privatize and find success or continue to accept failure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The State inefficiently allocates monies while obtaining declining results (#10 &amp; #11). Bureaucracy has poisoned education. The State can&#8217;t educate the nation in a positive way. Privatize and find success or continue to accept failure.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488948</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488948</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A bunch of studies were funded a while back to &quot;prove&quot; that increasing class size does not diminish quality of eduction. AFAIK they compared class sizes that were too large with class sizes that were larger. Teachers tend to think (everyone I&#039;ve spoken to, and this is my experience as well) that class size effects come in steps, not continuously.  FOr the most part, 5,6,7,8 are all the same number.  16,, 17, 18, or so is definately an effectively larger class, but the exact number does no matter (The cutoffs and groupings of N depend on the individual class for a lot of reasons). SO, those studies tended to compare, say, class size of 30, 35, and 40 and found no difference.  Most teachers would say once you hit about 30 you&#039;re screwed, adding a few more is still screwed taking away a few (go to from 30 to 25) would make a big difference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bunch of studies were funded a while back to &#8220;prove&#8221; that increasing class size does not diminish quality of eduction. AFAIK they compared class sizes that were too large with class sizes that were larger. Teachers tend to think (everyone I&#8217;ve spoken to, and this is my experience as well) that class size effects come in steps, not continuously.  FOr the most part, 5,6,7,8 are all the same number.  16,, 17, 18, or so is definately an effectively larger class, but the exact number does no matter (The cutoffs and groupings of N depend on the individual class for a lot of reasons). SO, those studies tended to compare, say, class size of 30, 35, and 40 and found no difference.  Most teachers would say once you hit about 30 you&#8217;re screwed, adding a few more is still screwed taking away a few (go to from 30 to 25) would make a big difference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: BCAW		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488947</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BCAW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488947</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What an interesting blog question! I&#039;m a School Counselor and former teacher in Virginia so I thought I&#039;d add my 2 cents since I guess I am &quot;in the trenches,&quot; as we say, every day. 
Many of these comments are right on about class sizes, and, unfortunately, about teaching to the test to a degree. Although, standards and pacing guides do have their place in not only making sure students are meeting a baseline of learning but also in assuring that students are, for the most part, learning similar things at roughly the same time during the year because there is a lot of transience (students moving from school to school) so it prevents large holes in their learning. It is possible for teachers to insert creative and innovative lessons and still meet standards, but, yes, there is some rote memorization. However, isn&#039;t that life skill as well? A great teacher knows how to balance this and to still make learning fun. 

&quot;limitthislimitthat&quot;, I&#039;m sorry that you clearly had such a terrible experience, and it&#039;s sad that you think so badly of teachers. It is an intense and wonderful job, and most people who do it well love students, love learning, and love teaching. The reason we are paid more than minimum wage is because of the level of education and training that is required and the highly skilled nature of the job. Other jobs that require similar levels of skills and time are paid far better, and that is why teachers lament their pay. However, there are so many fantastic things about the job, that&#039;s also why we stay. 

One thing we can do that does not necessarily involve &quot;throwing money&quot; at the problem (although underfunding does cut those programs and extra staff that help us make lessons more innovative/creative, class sizes smaller, and speciality teachers who can address individual needs of students)  but instead reallocating the money that we have is to make the public educational system more specialized, creating schools that have different niches for different types of students. I&#039;m not talking about throwing problem kids in one place and gifted learners in another. ALL students can learn, but, it is not realistic to expect all schools (and therefore all teachers) to cater to every individual and their specific learning needs. This is one of the reasons that other countries have better scores - they are not afraid of specialized programs where kids get what they need. We are terrified in this country of pigeonholing children - making them feel different. What&#039;s wrong with being different? As I teach my students, we all have different strengths and needs. If we didn&#039;t, the world would be pretty boring! Kids and parents need to have more choices - specialized charter schools or vouchers for private schools (which can be more specialized because they do not get federal money), and schools that are designed to help students with specific learning disabilities so they can get specialized instruction. NOT dumping grounds - schools with teachers who are specifically trained to teach and reach their students. These students may eventually not need that level of help anymore and then would transfer to a different program, or they may continue to need that support through grade 12 - either is perfectly ok. 
The idea that private vouchers will ruin public schools is ill-informed.  It will be cheaper overall to give parents tax credits for private schools instead of spending up to $8k as the chart shows, to educate those students in public school. Students who do not do this will go to their public school and there will be more money there to hire highly qualified teachers and teach to the specific needs of those students in smaller classes!

Another issue is the idea that every student needs to go to college... not true. Especially in our world today, college is not necessary for the majority of most jobs, though a Bachelor&#039;s degree is required. Instead, people need specialized training to do the work they are required to do. Trade schools have become a dirty word, and they absolutely should not be. Again, here&#039;s where other countries have it right. If the majority of high schools were specialized or had specialized training programs (NB: some larger school systems are beginning to do this now) we would be preparing students for the world of work out of high school, if that&#039;s what is right for them, or to go on to higher education, if that&#039;s the better fit. The role of a School Counselor is to help students and their parents figure out what that right fit is. 

It does need to be about changing the system. Educating the public and, especially, lawmakers, about what is really needed because the people making the rules are not the people in the industry. It&#039;s about educating parents about how they can help their children. If I had to give it a number I would say that 95% of parents want to help but many don&#039;t know how or are afraid/wary of the system for a variety of reasons. If our society supported and valued our teachers and schools more (monetarily and emotionally) instead of blaming them for all of the educational woes of this country, you might see more qualified people want to be a part of education. Teachers do have to work within some pretty strict parameters and red tape, and that often takes a lot of the great teachers out of the system because they burn out. We need to fix that to retain our people. Japan is a great example of how to do that.  

Sorry this is so long. I am passionate about this because I come from a family of teachers, my husband is a teacher, and I absolutely adore my job because of my amazing students. Thank you for starting the conversation, Greg, and I hope that some of these thoughts resonate with others. Children are awesome and resilient - if we set our expectations high and give them the tools they need, we can again rise to the top in more ways than one.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an interesting blog question! I&#8217;m a School Counselor and former teacher in Virginia so I thought I&#8217;d add my 2 cents since I guess I am &#8220;in the trenches,&#8221; as we say, every day.<br />
Many of these comments are right on about class sizes, and, unfortunately, about teaching to the test to a degree. Although, standards and pacing guides do have their place in not only making sure students are meeting a baseline of learning but also in assuring that students are, for the most part, learning similar things at roughly the same time during the year because there is a lot of transience (students moving from school to school) so it prevents large holes in their learning. It is possible for teachers to insert creative and innovative lessons and still meet standards, but, yes, there is some rote memorization. However, isn&#8217;t that life skill as well? A great teacher knows how to balance this and to still make learning fun. </p>
<p>&#8220;limitthislimitthat&#8221;, I&#8217;m sorry that you clearly had such a terrible experience, and it&#8217;s sad that you think so badly of teachers. It is an intense and wonderful job, and most people who do it well love students, love learning, and love teaching. The reason we are paid more than minimum wage is because of the level of education and training that is required and the highly skilled nature of the job. Other jobs that require similar levels of skills and time are paid far better, and that is why teachers lament their pay. However, there are so many fantastic things about the job, that&#8217;s also why we stay. </p>
<p>One thing we can do that does not necessarily involve &#8220;throwing money&#8221; at the problem (although underfunding does cut those programs and extra staff that help us make lessons more innovative/creative, class sizes smaller, and speciality teachers who can address individual needs of students)  but instead reallocating the money that we have is to make the public educational system more specialized, creating schools that have different niches for different types of students. I&#8217;m not talking about throwing problem kids in one place and gifted learners in another. ALL students can learn, but, it is not realistic to expect all schools (and therefore all teachers) to cater to every individual and their specific learning needs. This is one of the reasons that other countries have better scores &#8211; they are not afraid of specialized programs where kids get what they need. We are terrified in this country of pigeonholing children &#8211; making them feel different. What&#8217;s wrong with being different? As I teach my students, we all have different strengths and needs. If we didn&#8217;t, the world would be pretty boring! Kids and parents need to have more choices &#8211; specialized charter schools or vouchers for private schools (which can be more specialized because they do not get federal money), and schools that are designed to help students with specific learning disabilities so they can get specialized instruction. NOT dumping grounds &#8211; schools with teachers who are specifically trained to teach and reach their students. These students may eventually not need that level of help anymore and then would transfer to a different program, or they may continue to need that support through grade 12 &#8211; either is perfectly ok.<br />
The idea that private vouchers will ruin public schools is ill-informed.  It will be cheaper overall to give parents tax credits for private schools instead of spending up to $8k as the chart shows, to educate those students in public school. Students who do not do this will go to their public school and there will be more money there to hire highly qualified teachers and teach to the specific needs of those students in smaller classes!</p>
<p>Another issue is the idea that every student needs to go to college&#8230; not true. Especially in our world today, college is not necessary for the majority of most jobs, though a Bachelor&#8217;s degree is required. Instead, people need specialized training to do the work they are required to do. Trade schools have become a dirty word, and they absolutely should not be. Again, here&#8217;s where other countries have it right. If the majority of high schools were specialized or had specialized training programs (NB: some larger school systems are beginning to do this now) we would be preparing students for the world of work out of high school, if that&#8217;s what is right for them, or to go on to higher education, if that&#8217;s the better fit. The role of a School Counselor is to help students and their parents figure out what that right fit is. </p>
<p>It does need to be about changing the system. Educating the public and, especially, lawmakers, about what is really needed because the people making the rules are not the people in the industry. It&#8217;s about educating parents about how they can help their children. If I had to give it a number I would say that 95% of parents want to help but many don&#8217;t know how or are afraid/wary of the system for a variety of reasons. If our society supported and valued our teachers and schools more (monetarily and emotionally) instead of blaming them for all of the educational woes of this country, you might see more qualified people want to be a part of education. Teachers do have to work within some pretty strict parameters and red tape, and that often takes a lot of the great teachers out of the system because they burn out. We need to fix that to retain our people. Japan is a great example of how to do that.  </p>
<p>Sorry this is so long. I am passionate about this because I come from a family of teachers, my husband is a teacher, and I absolutely adore my job because of my amazing students. Thank you for starting the conversation, Greg, and I hope that some of these thoughts resonate with others. Children are awesome and resilient &#8211; if we set our expectations high and give them the tools they need, we can again rise to the top in more ways than one.</p>
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		By: Luna		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/07/29/all-we-need-to-do-to-fix-our-system-of-education-is/#comment-488946</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jul 2013 05:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=17333#comment-488946</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think the problem is that the class sizes are too big. When one adult, regardless of the credentials, is put in charge of 35 kids, regardless of why or what they are doing, it&#039;s hell. So when one adult is put in charge of 35 kids who don&#039;t want to be there and don&#039;t like what is being taught, it&#039;s worse than hell. Even reducing the class sizes to 20 kids is so much better. Spending money on reducing class sizes is the best thing we can do. And no, teachers don&#039;t destroy children, parents destroy children. Try homeschooling if you don&#039;t agree.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem is that the class sizes are too big. When one adult, regardless of the credentials, is put in charge of 35 kids, regardless of why or what they are doing, it&#8217;s hell. So when one adult is put in charge of 35 kids who don&#8217;t want to be there and don&#8217;t like what is being taught, it&#8217;s worse than hell. Even reducing the class sizes to 20 kids is so much better. Spending money on reducing class sizes is the best thing we can do. And no, teachers don&#8217;t destroy children, parents destroy children. Try homeschooling if you don&#8217;t agree.</p>
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