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	Comments on: The Civil War was fought over slavery	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:07:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Li D		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-575292</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Li D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-575292</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486702&quot;&gt;Schenck&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot; Sherman. &quot;
Splutter!
Complete and utter cockhead he is.
Do I even have to post references to such obviousness.
No fucking way should his intellect and talents be lauded.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486702">Schenck</a>.</p>
<p>&#8221; Sherman. &#8221;<br />
Splutter!<br />
Complete and utter cockhead he is.<br />
Do I even have to post references to such obviousness.<br />
No fucking way should his intellect and talents be lauded.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Li D		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-575286</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Li D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-575286</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486691&quot;&gt;Roger&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;To be fair, it’s GOOD that academics were beginning to look beyond slavery as the sole factor contributing to the Civil War. &quot;
This is quite an insightful comment.
Im a little surprised it needed to be said though.
If ones  thesis is x is a sole factor, one pretty much must examine the nullish idea of multiple factors and eliminate em to reach such a conclusion.
Its no good concluding first and then beginning to do the research.
I know this is years later but i like your style of writing.
Li D
Australia]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486691">Roger</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;To be fair, it’s GOOD that academics were beginning to look beyond slavery as the sole factor contributing to the Civil War. &#8221;<br />
This is quite an insightful comment.<br />
Im a little surprised it needed to be said though.<br />
If ones  thesis is x is a sole factor, one pretty much must examine the nullish idea of multiple factors and eliminate em to reach such a conclusion.<br />
Its no good concluding first and then beginning to do the research.<br />
I know this is years later but i like your style of writing.<br />
Li D<br />
Australia</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-575278</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-575278</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486705&quot;&gt;Jake&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;but I assure you, the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.&quot;

The thing that needs to stated &quot;with assurance&quot; is that you are an idiot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486705">Jake</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;but I assure you, the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.&#8221;</p>
<p>The thing that needs to stated &#8220;with assurance&#8221; is that you are an idiot.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Li D		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-575274</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Li D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 18:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-575274</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I just read something and part of it referred to statues of  confederate generals as participation trophies!  Hahahaha.
Now, on a serious note, it seems like racism was rampant everwhere in USA at the time.
Dont  diefy , with statues and whatnot , cockheads like Lincoln and heaps of other racist  arseholes.
Call out the racists  for what they were.
Unless of course it floats yanks boat to celebrate racist pricks.
It seems to.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read something and part of it referred to statues of  confederate generals as participation trophies!  Hahahaha.<br />
Now, on a serious note, it seems like racism was rampant everwhere in USA at the time.<br />
Dont  diefy , with statues and whatnot , cockheads like Lincoln and heaps of other racist  arseholes.<br />
Call out the racists  for what they were.<br />
Unless of course it floats yanks boat to celebrate racist pricks.<br />
It seems to.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Theodorakis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486708</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Theodorakis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486708</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[re: &quot;the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.&quot;

They actually said they did in their written declarations of secession.

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: &#8220;the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.&#8221;</p>
<p>They actually said they did in their written declarations of secession.</p>
<p><a href="http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: toby		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486707</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[toby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486707</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yea, Jake, it is standard denialism to cherry-pick quotes. Lincoln&#039;s objective in 1862 was to preserve the Union, but he had already drafted the Emancipation Proclamation. In 1865 at his Second Inaugaural, he clearly pointed to slavery as the cause of the war.

It is true that most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but if you read the secession convention debates and contemporary newspapers accounts, they show clearly how the slaveowners manipulated their poorer neighbours into believing that Lincoln and the Republicans planned a social revolution in legislating black equality. It was not a Revolution, it was a reactionary counter-Revolution.

It is clear your Civil War reading is limited - you should read Allan Guelzo on Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation for starters, McPherson on secession, and Harry Jaffa and Lincoln&#039;s views on secession and the Constitution.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, Jake, it is standard denialism to cherry-pick quotes. Lincoln&#8217;s objective in 1862 was to preserve the Union, but he had already drafted the Emancipation Proclamation. In 1865 at his Second Inaugaural, he clearly pointed to slavery as the cause of the war.</p>
<p>It is true that most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but if you read the secession convention debates and contemporary newspapers accounts, they show clearly how the slaveowners manipulated their poorer neighbours into believing that Lincoln and the Republicans planned a social revolution in legislating black equality. It was not a Revolution, it was a reactionary counter-Revolution.</p>
<p>It is clear your Civil War reading is limited &#8211; you should read Allan Guelzo on Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation for starters, McPherson on secession, and Harry Jaffa and Lincoln&#8217;s views on secession and the Constitution.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486706</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486706</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jake, the preponderance of evidence is against you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jake, the preponderance of evidence is against you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jake		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486705</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486705</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think its funny people are still stuck on this. While the Civil War evolved into an issue of slavery, it certainly was not the only reason, nor the root. Abraham Lincoln said himself, &quot;My paramount objective is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.&quot; Robert E. Lee expressed disgust for slavery, as well. Not only this, but a great many northerners who fought in the way DID have interests in the slave trade. A great majority of those who fought in the Confederacy (over 90%) did not own slaves. I find it hard that people are unwilling to accept the fact that this is even a possibility. Lincoln was indifferent to slavery for many years in office, and eventually sought out passing the emancipation proclamation. Don&#039;t you realize that this did NOT end slavery outright? Read up on Civil War experts--not one will tell you that slavery was the only cause of the war. I am no Southern apologist--I was born and raised a liberal from the northwest, but I assure you, the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its funny people are still stuck on this. While the Civil War evolved into an issue of slavery, it certainly was not the only reason, nor the root. Abraham Lincoln said himself, &#8220;My paramount objective is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.&#8221; Robert E. Lee expressed disgust for slavery, as well. Not only this, but a great many northerners who fought in the way DID have interests in the slave trade. A great majority of those who fought in the Confederacy (over 90%) did not own slaves. I find it hard that people are unwilling to accept the fact that this is even a possibility. Lincoln was indifferent to slavery for many years in office, and eventually sought out passing the emancipation proclamation. Don&#8217;t you realize that this did NOT end slavery outright? Read up on Civil War experts&#8211;not one will tell you that slavery was the only cause of the war. I am no Southern apologist&#8211;I was born and raised a liberal from the northwest, but I assure you, the South did not start the war with the intention of fighting the North against slavery.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486704</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486704</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[LH,
That&#039;s fine to think that those folk are deluding themselves, but it&#039;s also not the way the world works.

Southern non-slave owners still overwhelmingly supported slavery.  It&#039;s not a philosophical difference; it&#039;s simply the difference between the &quot;Haves&quot; and the &quot;Have nots.&quot;  Every oppressive regime has its fans among the oppressed (see: North Korea); every political party has constituents whose personal goals seem wildly at odds with the part itself (see: &quot;What&#039;s the Matter with Kansas?&quot; Frank, 2004).

Again, that argument is only a tool of self-delusion.  Southerners were fighting for their way of life, and that way of life included slavery, whether or not the individual Southerners owned slaves.

Break break

Separately, I was on a forum discussing the terrible new Paisley-LL Cool J collaboration, &quot;Accidental Racist.&quot;  This stated a maddeningly ignorant debate in the comments section regarding, of course, slavery and its role in the Civil War (far, far worse than here).

In light of getting some feedback from more of the general, less-educated public, I would like to retract some of my dissent from earlier posts: apparently, there are PLENTY of people who think that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, the Confederate flag does not symbolize racism, and the South were just some poor oppressed NASCAR fans that Lincoln was out to destroy economically.

And these are the people we let vote.  I&#039;m tempted to side with Adams over Jefferson on this one.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LH,<br />
That&#8217;s fine to think that those folk are deluding themselves, but it&#8217;s also not the way the world works.</p>
<p>Southern non-slave owners still overwhelmingly supported slavery.  It&#8217;s not a philosophical difference; it&#8217;s simply the difference between the &#8220;Haves&#8221; and the &#8220;Have nots.&#8221;  Every oppressive regime has its fans among the oppressed (see: North Korea); every political party has constituents whose personal goals seem wildly at odds with the part itself (see: &#8220;What&#8217;s the Matter with Kansas?&#8221; Frank, 2004).</p>
<p>Again, that argument is only a tool of self-delusion.  Southerners were fighting for their way of life, and that way of life included slavery, whether or not the individual Southerners owned slaves.</p>
<p>Break break</p>
<p>Separately, I was on a forum discussing the terrible new Paisley-LL Cool J collaboration, &#8220;Accidental Racist.&#8221;  This stated a maddeningly ignorant debate in the comments section regarding, of course, slavery and its role in the Civil War (far, far worse than here).</p>
<p>In light of getting some feedback from more of the general, less-educated public, I would like to retract some of my dissent from earlier posts: apparently, there are PLENTY of people who think that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, the Confederate flag does not symbolize racism, and the South were just some poor oppressed NASCAR fans that Lincoln was out to destroy economically.</p>
<p>And these are the people we let vote.  I&#8217;m tempted to side with Adams over Jefferson on this one.</p>
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		<title>
		By: LH		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/04/06/the-civil-war-was-fought-over-slavery/#comment-486703</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=16258#comment-486703</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Something else I didn&#039;t think to mention in my first post because I was narrowed in on the book I just read, which didn&#039;t talk about this:

Most Southerners who fought in the war didn&#039;t own slaves.  In fact, their standard of living was markedly worse because of the availability of unpaid labor for the &quot;ruling&quot; class; slavery was counter to their own economic self interest.  So for them, and their descendants, to say the war wasn&#039;t about slavery in a way makes sense.

In their eyes, they probably weren&#039;t fighting for slavery per se, since it didn&#039;t benefit them.  They weren&#039;t fighting for state&#039;s rights either.  Rather, it was some combination of pride, defending the homeland, or fighting off their oppresors.

And before you laugh at that last point, think about this: how many people in America, to this day, think Iraq had WMDs or that Saddam was a key player in 9/11?  Millions of them.  Despite the easy availability of information to prove them wrong.  Now think about a rural farmer in the 1860s with no real source of information about the outside world.  How easy must it have been for the ruling class to shape public opinion as to the reasons for the war and how the North was oppressing the South and coming to take all their possessions and impose their will?

In hindsight, it&#039;s easy to see that slavery was the root of the war, and anyone who today argues otherwise is an idiot and/or racist.  But it may not have been so easy to see at that time for millions of people, who then passed down stories through the generations.  So it&#039;s no surprise that the state&#039;s rights justification gained prominence.  And as psychology has taught us, people have an amazing ability to justify their beliefs while ignoring contrary evidence.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something else I didn&#8217;t think to mention in my first post because I was narrowed in on the book I just read, which didn&#8217;t talk about this:</p>
<p>Most Southerners who fought in the war didn&#8217;t own slaves.  In fact, their standard of living was markedly worse because of the availability of unpaid labor for the &#8220;ruling&#8221; class; slavery was counter to their own economic self interest.  So for them, and their descendants, to say the war wasn&#8217;t about slavery in a way makes sense.</p>
<p>In their eyes, they probably weren&#8217;t fighting for slavery per se, since it didn&#8217;t benefit them.  They weren&#8217;t fighting for state&#8217;s rights either.  Rather, it was some combination of pride, defending the homeland, or fighting off their oppresors.</p>
<p>And before you laugh at that last point, think about this: how many people in America, to this day, think Iraq had WMDs or that Saddam was a key player in 9/11?  Millions of them.  Despite the easy availability of information to prove them wrong.  Now think about a rural farmer in the 1860s with no real source of information about the outside world.  How easy must it have been for the ruling class to shape public opinion as to the reasons for the war and how the North was oppressing the South and coming to take all their possessions and impose their will?</p>
<p>In hindsight, it&#8217;s easy to see that slavery was the root of the war, and anyone who today argues otherwise is an idiot and/or racist.  But it may not have been so easy to see at that time for millions of people, who then passed down stories through the generations.  So it&#8217;s no surprise that the state&#8217;s rights justification gained prominence.  And as psychology has taught us, people have an amazing ability to justify their beliefs while ignoring contrary evidence.</p>
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