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	<title>
	Comments on: Greg Laden, liar.	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Aldridge		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485596</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Aldridge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2015 06:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485596</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It cracks me up to see Watts or his parroters saying things like &quot;extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence&quot;. Big Sagan fans, are y&#039;all? Been to TAM or listen to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe much? I&#039;d guess not- as if you did, you&#039;d know that people in the actual skeptical movement consider AGW &quot;skepticism&quot; to be an oxymoron and just another form of science denialism, in good company with anti-vaccinism, HIV denialism and lunar-landing hoaxers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It cracks me up to see Watts or his parroters saying things like &#8220;extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence&#8221;. Big Sagan fans, are y&#8217;all? Been to TAM or listen to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe much? I&#8217;d guess not- as if you did, you&#8217;d know that people in the actual skeptical movement consider AGW &#8220;skepticism&#8221; to be an oxymoron and just another form of science denialism, in good company with anti-vaccinism, HIV denialism and lunar-landing hoaxers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Ho-Stuart		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485595</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Ho-Stuart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 02:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485595</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In my comment above on significance, I took no account of autocorrelation, and this means I get more significance than I should.

If autocorrelation is taken into account, then the significance becomes much smaller; or equivalently, the confidence bounds on trend become larger.

This means that 16 years is too short a time to say anything much about trend simply from the temperature data. To say &quot;no significant warming&quot; invites confusion; the real situation is there is no significance for telling *what* the trend is doing.

In particular, you can&#039;t conclude with any confidence that the warming has paused, or stopped, or even changed.

The solution to this is to use a longer period of time, in which case you *do* get significance... and it *is* warming. But if you are specifically interested in the last 16 years, then you either have to say &quot;too short a time to say much of anything&quot;, or you have to get more data about the sources of short term variation.

If you stick with just the available temperature data, then you can&#039;t conclude cooling or pauses with any confidence, because the significance does not allow for it.

If you go on to look at sources of variation -- which include greenhouse effects, ENSO and volcanic effects, and separate them out, then the data DOES allow you to conclude that the warming is continuing over the last 16 years with very good significance indeed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my comment above on significance, I took no account of autocorrelation, and this means I get more significance than I should.</p>
<p>If autocorrelation is taken into account, then the significance becomes much smaller; or equivalently, the confidence bounds on trend become larger.</p>
<p>This means that 16 years is too short a time to say anything much about trend simply from the temperature data. To say &#8220;no significant warming&#8221; invites confusion; the real situation is there is no significance for telling *what* the trend is doing.</p>
<p>In particular, you can&#8217;t conclude with any confidence that the warming has paused, or stopped, or even changed.</p>
<p>The solution to this is to use a longer period of time, in which case you *do* get significance&#8230; and it *is* warming. But if you are specifically interested in the last 16 years, then you either have to say &#8220;too short a time to say much of anything&#8221;, or you have to get more data about the sources of short term variation.</p>
<p>If you stick with just the available temperature data, then you can&#8217;t conclude cooling or pauses with any confidence, because the significance does not allow for it.</p>
<p>If you go on to look at sources of variation &#8212; which include greenhouse effects, ENSO and volcanic effects, and separate them out, then the data DOES allow you to conclude that the warming is continuing over the last 16 years with very good significance indeed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joe		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485594</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 00:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485594</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The larger point was that the claim is so ridiculous that it shouldn&#039;t have entered the conversation in the first place.  Period.  Rattus Norvegicus (#18) got it exactly right.  It&#039;s like a snake-oil salesman plant in the crowd... &quot;wow, if that stuff does what he says it&#039;d be awesome.&quot;  Meanwhile the salesman is claiming the elixir makes you as strong as 10 men and twice as tall with just a sip.  This is the claim you don&#039;t even entertain.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The larger point was that the claim is so ridiculous that it shouldn&#8217;t have entered the conversation in the first place.  Period.  Rattus Norvegicus (#18) got it exactly right.  It&#8217;s like a snake-oil salesman plant in the crowd&#8230; &#8220;wow, if that stuff does what he says it&#8217;d be awesome.&#8221;  Meanwhile the salesman is claiming the elixir makes you as strong as 10 men and twice as tall with just a sip.  This is the claim you don&#8217;t even entertain.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Ho-Stuart		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485593</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Ho-Stuart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485593</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jimbo asks: &quot;By the way there has been no statistically significant global warming in at least 16 years. Do you accept or deny this fact? What will you say if the world cools for the next decade (which non of the climate computers projected)? One day YOU might have to deal with your own denialist issues.&quot;

Excuse me for being skeptical... but what data are you using?

Over the last 16 years, through the end of 2012, the 16 year trend from HadCrut4 is 0.054 C/decade +/- 0.037

That is 95% confidence limits using convention linear regression and monthly data points with global anomalies.

The GISS data set gives 0.080 C/decade +/- 0.039

So no, I think that the data DOES show a statistically significant positive warming trend over 16 years.

Claims to the contrary by all the usual suspects notwithstanding. The data is there; look at THAT. It does show a statistically significant warming trend over 16 years.

BTW, 16 years too short to tell you the longer term trend. The 16 year trend, no matter what value it shows, reflects a lot of short term variation that obscures the longer trend. Much of the online discussion of this denialist talking point has focused on identifying those short term influences that impact trends over these short time spans.

But be that as it may; the data really does show warming over 16 years to the end of 2012.

As for decades (an even shorter period) with a definite negative trend, that&#039;s just &quot;going down the up escalator&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jimbo asks: &#8220;By the way there has been no statistically significant global warming in at least 16 years. Do you accept or deny this fact? What will you say if the world cools for the next decade (which non of the climate computers projected)? One day YOU might have to deal with your own denialist issues.&#8221;</p>
<p>Excuse me for being skeptical&#8230; but what data are you using?</p>
<p>Over the last 16 years, through the end of 2012, the 16 year trend from HadCrut4 is 0.054 C/decade +/- 0.037</p>
<p>That is 95% confidence limits using convention linear regression and monthly data points with global anomalies.</p>
<p>The GISS data set gives 0.080 C/decade +/- 0.039</p>
<p>So no, I think that the data DOES show a statistically significant positive warming trend over 16 years.</p>
<p>Claims to the contrary by all the usual suspects notwithstanding. The data is there; look at THAT. It does show a statistically significant warming trend over 16 years.</p>
<p>BTW, 16 years too short to tell you the longer term trend. The 16 year trend, no matter what value it shows, reflects a lot of short term variation that obscures the longer trend. Much of the online discussion of this denialist talking point has focused on identifying those short term influences that impact trends over these short time spans.</p>
<p>But be that as it may; the data really does show warming over 16 years to the end of 2012.</p>
<p>As for decades (an even shorter period) with a definite negative trend, that&#8217;s just &#8220;going down the up escalator&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Russell Seitz		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485592</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russell Seitz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485592</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;There is actually no reason to believe that a meteor or two having fossil or isotopic evidence that conforms to would call life could land on us from Mars. There are all sorts of problems with such data,...&lt;/i&gt;

What  makes the  short-range version of Hoyle &#038; wickramasinghe&#039;s old hypotheis problematic is that ballistics is a two way street  ( Happy gun day by the way - pity  nobody organized a post-boxing day shoot .) .


The same  hypervelocity asteroid fragments that whack bits of Mars int the inner solar system to fall to Earth as shergottites srtike divots  off its surface and into the outer  solar system as well.

The odds on  them hitting Mars are deeply discounted  by the reversal of outbound  accelerstion by the  sun&#039;s gravity, but since the time scale is astronomical, such things will and do happen, albeit as rarely as  catastrophic asteroid impacts .

If eevery earthly astrobleme represents a scatter shot of terrestrial debris in Mar&#039;s general direction, we can expect  inverse-shergottite meteorites  ( what to call them ? the mineralogists have already pinched &#039;tellurites&#039; ) to be only a few orders of magnitude rarer on Mars than here.

So ballistics being blind, some few  bits of terrrestrial material  deposited on Mars in the last  few billion years may already have been Returned To Sender by the impact pf near-Mars asteroids.  Calculating the fraction that contain diatom fossils is best left to a bar-full of soft rock geologiists at an AGU meeting.


Incidentally, I devoted an op-ed to this conundrum back in the day when the WSJ still had a science editor:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB111050427890376787.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There is actually no reason to believe that a meteor or two having fossil or isotopic evidence that conforms to would call life could land on us from Mars. There are all sorts of problems with such data,&#8230;</i></p>
<p>What  makes the  short-range version of Hoyle &amp; wickramasinghe&#8217;s old hypotheis problematic is that ballistics is a two way street  ( Happy gun day by the way &#8211; pity  nobody organized a post-boxing day shoot .) .</p>
<p>The same  hypervelocity asteroid fragments that whack bits of Mars int the inner solar system to fall to Earth as shergottites srtike divots  off its surface and into the outer  solar system as well.</p>
<p>The odds on  them hitting Mars are deeply discounted  by the reversal of outbound  accelerstion by the  sun&#8217;s gravity, but since the time scale is astronomical, such things will and do happen, albeit as rarely as  catastrophic asteroid impacts .</p>
<p>If eevery earthly astrobleme represents a scatter shot of terrestrial debris in Mar&#8217;s general direction, we can expect  inverse-shergottite meteorites  ( what to call them ? the mineralogists have already pinched &#8216;tellurites&#8217; ) to be only a few orders of magnitude rarer on Mars than here.</p>
<p>So ballistics being blind, some few  bits of terrrestrial material  deposited on Mars in the last  few billion years may already have been Returned To Sender by the impact pf near-Mars asteroids.  Calculating the fraction that contain diatom fossils is best left to a bar-full of soft rock geologiists at an AGU meeting.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I devoted an op-ed to this conundrum back in the day when the WSJ still had a science editor:</p>
<p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB111050427890376787.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB111050427890376787.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Susan Anderson		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485591</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Susan Anderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485591</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In an earlier post I seem to have misspelled Russell&#039;s wonderful take on WUWT, which is hard to find.  Please don&#039;t mistake it for the source of its humor:  that&#039;s two v&#039;s

http://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an earlier post I seem to have misspelled Russell&#8217;s wonderful take on WUWT, which is hard to find.  Please don&#8217;t mistake it for the source of its humor:  that&#8217;s two v&#8217;s</p>
<p><a href="http://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Jackson		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485590</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jackson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 00:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485590</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Your rebuttal is convincing, but I&#039;m still skeptical.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your rebuttal is convincing, but I&#8217;m still skeptical.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dhogaza		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485589</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dhogaza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485589</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[thefordprefect:

&quot;One should also remember the pages of drivel written about super-cold anarctic temperatures and CO2 snow&quot;

Beat me to it, good on you!  I&#039;ll add that the best part about that post and the string of comments centers around Watts&#039; speculating that all standard texts on physical chemistry are wrong, Steve Goddard right ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thefordprefect:</p>
<p>&#8220;One should also remember the pages of drivel written about super-cold anarctic temperatures and CO2 snow&#8221;</p>
<p>Beat me to it, good on you!  I&#8217;ll add that the best part about that post and the string of comments centers around Watts&#8217; speculating that all standard texts on physical chemistry are wrong, Steve Goddard right &#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel J. Andrews		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485588</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485588</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If I published a paper showing the moon is made of green cheese, would Mr. Watts reprint it, call it interesting, but say he&#039;s skeptical? Or would he recognize it as nonsense and not even bother with it? The latter option is exactly what he should have done with the meteorite paper. If you&#039;re not equipped to recognize science from implausible stuff, then why would you think you&#039;re even remotely equipped to have a science blog.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I published a paper showing the moon is made of green cheese, would Mr. Watts reprint it, call it interesting, but say he&#8217;s skeptical? Or would he recognize it as nonsense and not even bother with it? The latter option is exactly what he should have done with the meteorite paper. If you&#8217;re not equipped to recognize science from implausible stuff, then why would you think you&#8217;re even remotely equipped to have a science blog.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fossil Diatoms Found in a Meteorite? Really? &#124; Spherical Chickens in a Vacuum		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/#comment-485587</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fossil Diatoms Found in a Meteorite? Really? &#124; Spherical Chickens in a Vacuum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15502#comment-485587</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/ [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/01/17/greg-laden-liar/</a> [&#8230;]</p>
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