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	Comments on: Gun Nuts Stay Home: No Teachers or Staff With Guns in Schools!	</title>
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		<title>
		By: adelady		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496973</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adelady]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496973</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Culture has changed. There is more evil allowed to exist now than long ago. The old days were great,...&quot;

You&#039;re American aren&#039;t you?  But you&#039;re neither black nor a woman  as far as I can tell.   The 40s, 50s and 60s weren&#039;t so wonderful for &#039;them&#039; whether they were young or not.  The &quot;rebellion&quot; of the civil rights and feminist movements was long overdue.   You may dislike what you call &quot;socialist thinking&quot; in the USA - which in Europe or Australia would be referred to as moderately conservative - but it&#039;s hardly the end of the world.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Culture has changed. There is more evil allowed to exist now than long ago. The old days were great,&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re American aren&#8217;t you?  But you&#8217;re neither black nor a woman  as far as I can tell.   The 40s, 50s and 60s weren&#8217;t so wonderful for &#8216;them&#8217; whether they were young or not.  The &#8220;rebellion&#8221; of the civil rights and feminist movements was long overdue.   You may dislike what you call &#8220;socialist thinking&#8221; in the USA &#8211; which in Europe or Australia would be referred to as moderately conservative &#8211; but it&#8217;s hardly the end of the world.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kevin Sanders		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496972</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Sanders]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 01:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496972</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ RL

You are correct sir. I remember growing up. There was always a loaded 12 gauage pump standing on the corner of the dining room and almost everywhere you went you saw at least two to four guns, often loaded, hanging on the back glass of pickup trucks in the parking lot of a grocery store. Men never used to take their guns home after a day of hunting if they needed to ake a stop for something in town.

Culture has changed. There is more evil allowed to exist now than long ago. The old days were great, but are gone and I primarlily blame the 1960s and 1970s youth for that. Their stubborn rebellion and lack of morals has backfed evil into this country. They kciked God out the schools, banned Christmas, re-educated youth into socialist thinking, embrace sin as normal life, and then ask WHY when somethiung goes wrong. In the words of my Russian customer, I will not understand. Where a parcel?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ RL</p>
<p>You are correct sir. I remember growing up. There was always a loaded 12 gauage pump standing on the corner of the dining room and almost everywhere you went you saw at least two to four guns, often loaded, hanging on the back glass of pickup trucks in the parking lot of a grocery store. Men never used to take their guns home after a day of hunting if they needed to ake a stop for something in town.</p>
<p>Culture has changed. There is more evil allowed to exist now than long ago. The old days were great, but are gone and I primarlily blame the 1960s and 1970s youth for that. Their stubborn rebellion and lack of morals has backfed evil into this country. They kciked God out the schools, banned Christmas, re-educated youth into socialist thinking, embrace sin as normal life, and then ask WHY when somethiung goes wrong. In the words of my Russian customer, I will not understand. Where a parcel?</p>
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		<title>
		By: adelady		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496971</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adelady]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496971</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, this one certainly made the news.  Though I suppose there&#039;s no confusion, just bystanders getting bullet and ricochet injuries.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this one certainly made the news.  Though I suppose there&#8217;s no confusion, just bystanders getting bullet and ricochet injuries.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496970</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496970</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So, ron, you seem to be suggesting that the best solution is to just get rid of the guns to begin with.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, ron, you seem to be suggesting that the best solution is to just get rid of the guns to begin with.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ron		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496969</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496969</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Eric...

Cops are not at the scene when the armed gunman shoots into crowds. Cops are at least 10 minutes away and by then, the situation resolves. In any of the shootings that have made the news, you can&#039;t say that this cop confusion scenario has occurred. If anything, the cops wait ( http://tinyurl.com/cewxgwp ).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Eric&#8230;</p>
<p>Cops are not at the scene when the armed gunman shoots into crowds. Cops are at least 10 minutes away and by then, the situation resolves. In any of the shootings that have made the news, you can&#8217;t say that this cop confusion scenario has occurred. If anything, the cops wait ( <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cewxgwp" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tinyurl.com/cewxgwp</a> ).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric Lund		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496968</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Lund]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496968</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Sam: At the time I thought that arming pilots was a bad idea. (Reinforced and locked cockpit doors, which were installed on US civilian aircraft after 9/11, would have been enough to prevent 9/11.) For the same reason I think arming teachers is a bad idea, and likewise I view the armed citizen scenario as a fantasy.

There is a reason that SWAT teams are special units in law enforcement and that ordinary cops are not issued such armaments. The reason is that the skill to use a firearm in a situation where innocent bystanders are close to your target is something for which SWAT team members get special training--ordinary cops (let alone civilians) do not get this training.

Now try the following thought experiment: Somebody is shooting into a crowd. Somebody else responds by shooting his own gun. Now suppose you are a cop, or another armed citizen, responding to the situation. Chances are you were looking the wrong way when the shooting started. Which of the two shooters is the bad guy? How do you know they aren&#039;t in cahoots with each other? I suspect I would guess wrong about half the time, and I suspect the same is true of almost all civilians and a majority of cops.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sam: At the time I thought that arming pilots was a bad idea. (Reinforced and locked cockpit doors, which were installed on US civilian aircraft after 9/11, would have been enough to prevent 9/11.) For the same reason I think arming teachers is a bad idea, and likewise I view the armed citizen scenario as a fantasy.</p>
<p>There is a reason that SWAT teams are special units in law enforcement and that ordinary cops are not issued such armaments. The reason is that the skill to use a firearm in a situation where innocent bystanders are close to your target is something for which SWAT team members get special training&#8211;ordinary cops (let alone civilians) do not get this training.</p>
<p>Now try the following thought experiment: Somebody is shooting into a crowd. Somebody else responds by shooting his own gun. Now suppose you are a cop, or another armed citizen, responding to the situation. Chances are you were looking the wrong way when the shooting started. Which of the two shooters is the bad guy? How do you know they aren&#8217;t in cahoots with each other? I suspect I would guess wrong about half the time, and I suspect the same is true of almost all civilians and a majority of cops.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Haigh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496967</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Haigh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496967</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s topics like this that make me really glad I live this side of the pond. I can&#039;t  see an answer to the mass murder issue in the US, there are just to many guns out there for gun control to have much effect now. Add to that the blind faith that arming everyone to the teeth is going to help and I would despair. What happens when the first teacher starts shooting, or the first kid gets hold of a teachers gun and blows his/her head off?
What is clear is that America is a violent society, far more so than any western counterpart. Hollywood is not the reason, we watch mainly US films here. Levels of violence do seem to be dropping, but the US assault rate (armed or unarmed) remains several times that of Canada or Western Europe.
What else is different about the US? The size of the wealth gap between rich and poor and much more religion spring to mind, but I have no idea what effect, if any, they have.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s topics like this that make me really glad I live this side of the pond. I can&#8217;t  see an answer to the mass murder issue in the US, there are just to many guns out there for gun control to have much effect now. Add to that the blind faith that arming everyone to the teeth is going to help and I would despair. What happens when the first teacher starts shooting, or the first kid gets hold of a teachers gun and blows his/her head off?<br />
What is clear is that America is a violent society, far more so than any western counterpart. Hollywood is not the reason, we watch mainly US films here. Levels of violence do seem to be dropping, but the US assault rate (armed or unarmed) remains several times that of Canada or Western Europe.<br />
What else is different about the US? The size of the wealth gap between rich and poor and much more religion spring to mind, but I have no idea what effect, if any, they have.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496966</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496966</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ron, you can provide all the made up lists you want, there are actual studies and you are actually wrong.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, you can provide all the made up lists you want, there are actual studies and you are actually wrong.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ron		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496965</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 05:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496965</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;But sometimes we also just need to do what people really want to do, or avoid doing what people just don’t want to do. That counts too, depending on what issue we are talking about.&quot;--Now there is some moral clarity. When you agree with me...we should do it...when you don&#039;t agree with me...I&#039;m going to belittle you and say that I&#039;m right anyhow...so we should do it.

That&#039;s how a highly educated &quot;scientific mind&quot; sees society in 2012?

&quot;The parents are saying they don’t want it to happen. In this case, then, not only is there a rational argument to not arm teachers, but nobody involved who counts (the gun nuts don’t count) is going to allow it.&quot; Rinse and repeat. This is the thinking that made sure the nearest good guy with a gun was minutes away when seconds cost lives.

Here are some of the times where an armed citizen stopped a shooting (before it became a national headline):  Pearl High School
Appalachian Law School
Muskegon Michigan (search Clare Cooper)
New Life Church
Santa Clara Gunshop
Aniston Shoney&#039;s
Good Food Market
Early Texas Peach House
AT&#038;T store New York Mills, NY
 College Park, GA
Trolley Square
Winnemucca NV
Parker Middle School Dance
Destiny Christian Center
Tyler Courthouse]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But sometimes we also just need to do what people really want to do, or avoid doing what people just don’t want to do. That counts too, depending on what issue we are talking about.&#8221;&#8211;Now there is some moral clarity. When you agree with me&#8230;we should do it&#8230;when you don&#8217;t agree with me&#8230;I&#8217;m going to belittle you and say that I&#8217;m right anyhow&#8230;so we should do it.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how a highly educated &#8220;scientific mind&#8221; sees society in 2012?</p>
<p>&#8220;The parents are saying they don’t want it to happen. In this case, then, not only is there a rational argument to not arm teachers, but nobody involved who counts (the gun nuts don’t count) is going to allow it.&#8221; Rinse and repeat. This is the thinking that made sure the nearest good guy with a gun was minutes away when seconds cost lives.</p>
<p>Here are some of the times where an armed citizen stopped a shooting (before it became a national headline):  Pearl High School<br />
Appalachian Law School<br />
Muskegon Michigan (search Clare Cooper)<br />
New Life Church<br />
Santa Clara Gunshop<br />
Aniston Shoney&#8217;s<br />
Good Food Market<br />
Early Texas Peach House<br />
AT&amp;T store New York Mills, NY<br />
 College Park, GA<br />
Trolley Square<br />
Winnemucca NV<br />
Parker Middle School Dance<br />
Destiny Christian Center<br />
Tyler Courthouse</p>
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		<title>
		By: R.L. Schaefer		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/12/19/gun-nuts-stay-home-no-teachers-or-staff-with-guns-in-schools/#comment-496964</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R.L. Schaefer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 04:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=15033#comment-496964</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Our Founding Fathers understood that the private ownership of firearms might give pause to a government considering tyranny and therefore wrote the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights.  Unfortunately, the courts and politicians have “interpreted” the Constitution and twisted it to reflect popular opinion and political expediency. It no longer protects it’s citizens from a government with a rabid thirst for power or from the popular whimsies of the progressive majority who believe that opinion polls should govern a nation - not the Constitution.

From the beginning of our nation until 1968 there was very little in the way of gun control. Firearms, unlocked and often loaded, hung over fireplace mantels and stood in corners of tens of thousands of homes across the nation.  Firearms could be purchased by anyone through the mail.  There were no background checks or waiting periods.  Children were taught to shoot,  practice gun safety and act responsibly at an early age.  Guess what?  Some schools even had shooting teams and guns were often brought to school and shot there.  So what changed?  How did guns become evil?  How did these inanimate objects turn so many of our youth into twisted and tortured souls since advent of “Gun Control”?

Could it be it’s wasn’t the guns.  Could it be our youth and our society is actually effected by the immoral garbage Hollywood turns out and calls entertainment?  Might there be a link to the thousands of ultra violent video games kids start playing at an ever younger age?  Is it not possible there is damage being done by the soulless, mindless and violent noise that passes for “music” nowadays?  Aren’t we, as a society, made less honorable, by electing those with no honor to lead us.  Isn’t it a problem when raising kids is left to the government or strangers while well-off parents pursue a bigger home, a flashier car or their own personal “growth”.  Isn’t it sad that we have chased God to the shadows of our society, while promoting condoms in school and parading homosexual sex on the streets of San Francisco?  Isn’t it  a pity that our “wonderful economy” doesn’t provide the same standard of living it did 40 years ago when only one working-class parent had to go to work to earn what it takes two incomes to accomplish now?  Why do we listen to feminist groups who think being a mother is a “waste”. Haven’t we destroyed our respect for life by the promiscuous use of abortion as birth control?   Why don’t we find it hypocritical that the”Hollywood elite” shove sex,  gratuitous violence and moral poverty down our throats and then scream they’re protected by the First Amendment, and in the same breath denounce the Second Amendment?  What about the effect of drugs, both illegal and prescribed, that our children take to alter or control their minds?  Is the popular belief that morality is subjective -“free floating” and “If it feels good, do it.” - a good example for our children?  Is part of the problem that we teach children to have self esteem without actually having to do something to earn it?  Could all the “experts” be wrong and maybe discipline in the home is not such a bad thing after all?   Maybe there is more to parenting problem teenagers than simply tossing the car keys at them?  Are all the Federal programs in our schools actually about education or  are they, perhaps, indoctrination? Finally, is it a healthy thing to encourage lifestyles that  satisfy the body, yet starve the spirit?

None of these things matter you say.  Besides, these issues are far too difficult and the solutions much too time consuming.   More laws, now there’s the answer!   Besides  it’s much easier to restrain the freedom of the people than to teach free people self-restraint.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our Founding Fathers understood that the private ownership of firearms might give pause to a government considering tyranny and therefore wrote the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights.  Unfortunately, the courts and politicians have “interpreted” the Constitution and twisted it to reflect popular opinion and political expediency. It no longer protects it’s citizens from a government with a rabid thirst for power or from the popular whimsies of the progressive majority who believe that opinion polls should govern a nation &#8211; not the Constitution.</p>
<p>From the beginning of our nation until 1968 there was very little in the way of gun control. Firearms, unlocked and often loaded, hung over fireplace mantels and stood in corners of tens of thousands of homes across the nation.  Firearms could be purchased by anyone through the mail.  There were no background checks or waiting periods.  Children were taught to shoot,  practice gun safety and act responsibly at an early age.  Guess what?  Some schools even had shooting teams and guns were often brought to school and shot there.  So what changed?  How did guns become evil?  How did these inanimate objects turn so many of our youth into twisted and tortured souls since advent of “Gun Control”?</p>
<p>Could it be it’s wasn’t the guns.  Could it be our youth and our society is actually effected by the immoral garbage Hollywood turns out and calls entertainment?  Might there be a link to the thousands of ultra violent video games kids start playing at an ever younger age?  Is it not possible there is damage being done by the soulless, mindless and violent noise that passes for “music” nowadays?  Aren’t we, as a society, made less honorable, by electing those with no honor to lead us.  Isn’t it a problem when raising kids is left to the government or strangers while well-off parents pursue a bigger home, a flashier car or their own personal “growth”.  Isn’t it sad that we have chased God to the shadows of our society, while promoting condoms in school and parading homosexual sex on the streets of San Francisco?  Isn’t it  a pity that our “wonderful economy” doesn’t provide the same standard of living it did 40 years ago when only one working-class parent had to go to work to earn what it takes two incomes to accomplish now?  Why do we listen to feminist groups who think being a mother is a “waste”. Haven’t we destroyed our respect for life by the promiscuous use of abortion as birth control?   Why don’t we find it hypocritical that the”Hollywood elite” shove sex,  gratuitous violence and moral poverty down our throats and then scream they’re protected by the First Amendment, and in the same breath denounce the Second Amendment?  What about the effect of drugs, both illegal and prescribed, that our children take to alter or control their minds?  Is the popular belief that morality is subjective -“free floating” and “If it feels good, do it.” &#8211; a good example for our children?  Is part of the problem that we teach children to have self esteem without actually having to do something to earn it?  Could all the “experts” be wrong and maybe discipline in the home is not such a bad thing after all?   Maybe there is more to parenting problem teenagers than simply tossing the car keys at them?  Are all the Federal programs in our schools actually about education or  are they, perhaps, indoctrination? Finally, is it a healthy thing to encourage lifestyles that  satisfy the body, yet starve the spirit?</p>
<p>None of these things matter you say.  Besides, these issues are far too difficult and the solutions much too time consuming.   More laws, now there’s the answer!   Besides  it’s much easier to restrain the freedom of the people than to teach free people self-restraint.</p>
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