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	Comments on: The Rape Switch, Again	</title>
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		<title>
		By: April		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-975954</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[April]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 May 2022 10:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-975954</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dr Brian Neil Talarico, North Bay Has been convicted of child molestation, an possession of child pornography on his computer. Sexually molesting a young boy… He had previous convictions for child molestation in 1990 and 2001. After his parole in 2006… Dr. Talarico Brian Works for North Bay Regional Health Centre, and Elsewhere, despite his background, and numerous complaints against him of abuse, fraud, negligence, and imprisonment. he destroys childrens lives, and we’re so sick and tired of the injustice...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Brian Neil Talarico, North Bay Has been convicted of child molestation, an possession of child pornography on his computer. Sexually molesting a young boy… He had previous convictions for child molestation in 1990 and 2001. After his parole in 2006… Dr. Talarico Brian Works for North Bay Regional Health Centre, and Elsewhere, despite his background, and numerous complaints against him of abuse, fraud, negligence, and imprisonment. he destroys childrens lives, and we’re so sick and tired of the injustice&#8230;</p>
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		By: All of human civilization is nothing but men codifying the forcible rape and coercion into PIV of women and girls, while simultaneously creating propaganda that females should maintain in close proximity with mayls. &#8211; Raising Witch Consciousness		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-966553</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[All of human civilization is nothing but men codifying the forcible rape and coercion into PIV of women and girls, while simultaneously creating propaganda that females should maintain in close proximity with mayls. &#8211; Raising Witch Consciousness]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2022 22:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-966553</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Sekhmet She Owl&#8217;s &#8220;Male Violence is Biological.&#8221;Also check out Greg Laden&#8216;s blog.When will women wake up? Oh yeah, [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Sekhmet She Owl&#8217;s &#8220;Male Violence is Biological.&#8221;Also check out Greg Laden&#8216;s blog.When will women wake up? Oh yeah, [&#8230;]</p>
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		By: Survivorsoldier		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494714</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Survivorsoldier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494714</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: the upthread musings on how wartime rape rates may have changed from the Vietnam era to the present day.

 I&#039;m not sure how much I&#039;d trust any stats that were available anyway, as there are so many inherent difficulties with gathering such data in any meaningful and comprehensive manner. Therefore, I admit that I do not know whether the rate of wartime rapes committed against the enemy have changed substantially.

I do know that according to anonymous surveys, about 1/3 of *military women* report having experienced serious sexual assault. Having taken a few of those &quot;anonymous&quot; surveys myself while in service, I know that those answers only represent the women who had reason to believe that they were in a place that was &quot;safe enough&quot; for them to disclose, and where their responses would truly be anonymous. My unit was not among those safe spaces, so despite having endured numerous sexual assaults (whether or not I was raped depends on how you define rape... if you include being drugged and coerced-consent and date-rape, then yes, multiple times. But if you only include &quot;forcible&quot; rape, as the military culture does, then no) from literally my first DAY, my survey answers reflected nothing but sunshine, roses, and rainbows.

Clearly, as a female veteran, I did and do support the gender integration of the US military.

But I also recognize that this integration has been implemented in such a way as to provide a safe and target-rich environment ...for the rapists.

They no longer *need* to rape the enemy, they can just rape their sisters-in-arms, and the whole institution will aid and abet them in so doing, and in silencing, shaming, and ostracizing their victims.
http://m.guardiannews.com/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military?cat=society&#038;type=article

I hear it&#039;s getting better for those on active duty  since Panetta took over, but it&#039;s still an incredibly long way from &quot;acceptable&quot;.

Likewise for those vets in the VA system - unlike my sisters who served before me, at least I&#039;ve been able to get a modicum of grudging treatment for my MST(Military sexual trauma, sort of an informal subset of PTSD), but even now, 4 years after first seeking treatment and compensation for this, I&#039;m one of the vets who has &quot;personality disorder NOS&quot; listed as my official diagnosis, NOT PTSD. Why? PTSD is service-connectable and compensable. &quot;Personality disorder&quot; is not.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/12/30/42665.htm

That&#039;s just another facet of how the rape culture continues to re-victimize survivors long after the initial assault.

Back on-topic...
I think the &quot;rape switch&quot; idea is useful for dialog, and real in the sense that yes, demonstrably, people will do things under stress that they would consider morally repugnant otherwise, and rape is not a special case that is somehow immune from that mechanism. Refraining from putting people in such positions, and policing them stringently when this is unavoidable are good solution-ideas that can come from framing it this way.

I also find &quot;Schoedinger&#039;s rapist&quot; a useful conceit, because it aptly describes that sense of uncertainty when confronted with an unknown person in an insecure setting. But I always find myself wanting to clarify that for me, the point of telling that story is not to convince every man that he could be a rapist, nor to make every man responsible for my fears, but to try to help EVERY man and woman  understand why those fears exist, and to enlist the help of EVERY man and woman in reinforcing by their own words, behavior, and  influence on others, to simply acknowledge that fear, accept it as real and valid, and to contribute to creating a culture in which it is neither dismissed nor pandered to, but simply made unnecessary because sexual assault becomes so rare, and its impact so reduced that it&#039;s just a non-issue for all practical purposes.

We don&#039;t fear the bubonic plague anymore, because it&#039;s known, diagnosed readily when it does occur, and readily treated without blaming and shaming the victim.

When sexual assaults are likewise rare, identifiable in the sense that no one dismisses, denies, or shifts blame for them, and treatment for the victims is accessible, effective, and stigma-free, I&#039;ll consider the point of that story to have been successfully internalized by our society.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: the upthread musings on how wartime rape rates may have changed from the Vietnam era to the present day.</p>
<p> I&#8217;m not sure how much I&#8217;d trust any stats that were available anyway, as there are so many inherent difficulties with gathering such data in any meaningful and comprehensive manner. Therefore, I admit that I do not know whether the rate of wartime rapes committed against the enemy have changed substantially.</p>
<p>I do know that according to anonymous surveys, about 1/3 of *military women* report having experienced serious sexual assault. Having taken a few of those &#8220;anonymous&#8221; surveys myself while in service, I know that those answers only represent the women who had reason to believe that they were in a place that was &#8220;safe enough&#8221; for them to disclose, and where their responses would truly be anonymous. My unit was not among those safe spaces, so despite having endured numerous sexual assaults (whether or not I was raped depends on how you define rape&#8230; if you include being drugged and coerced-consent and date-rape, then yes, multiple times. But if you only include &#8220;forcible&#8221; rape, as the military culture does, then no) from literally my first DAY, my survey answers reflected nothing but sunshine, roses, and rainbows.</p>
<p>Clearly, as a female veteran, I did and do support the gender integration of the US military.</p>
<p>But I also recognize that this integration has been implemented in such a way as to provide a safe and target-rich environment &#8230;for the rapists.</p>
<p>They no longer *need* to rape the enemy, they can just rape their sisters-in-arms, and the whole institution will aid and abet them in so doing, and in silencing, shaming, and ostracizing their victims.<br />
<a href="http://m.guardiannews.com/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military?cat=society&#038;type=article" rel="nofollow ugc">http://m.guardiannews.com/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military?cat=society&#038;type=article</a></p>
<p>I hear it&#8217;s getting better for those on active duty  since Panetta took over, but it&#8217;s still an incredibly long way from &#8220;acceptable&#8221;.</p>
<p>Likewise for those vets in the VA system &#8211; unlike my sisters who served before me, at least I&#8217;ve been able to get a modicum of grudging treatment for my MST(Military sexual trauma, sort of an informal subset of PTSD), but even now, 4 years after first seeking treatment and compensation for this, I&#8217;m one of the vets who has &#8220;personality disorder NOS&#8221; listed as my official diagnosis, NOT PTSD. Why? PTSD is service-connectable and compensable. &#8220;Personality disorder&#8221; is not.<br />
<a href="http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/12/30/42665.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/12/30/42665.htm</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s just another facet of how the rape culture continues to re-victimize survivors long after the initial assault.</p>
<p>Back on-topic&#8230;<br />
I think the &#8220;rape switch&#8221; idea is useful for dialog, and real in the sense that yes, demonstrably, people will do things under stress that they would consider morally repugnant otherwise, and rape is not a special case that is somehow immune from that mechanism. Refraining from putting people in such positions, and policing them stringently when this is unavoidable are good solution-ideas that can come from framing it this way.</p>
<p>I also find &#8220;Schoedinger&#8217;s rapist&#8221; a useful conceit, because it aptly describes that sense of uncertainty when confronted with an unknown person in an insecure setting. But I always find myself wanting to clarify that for me, the point of telling that story is not to convince every man that he could be a rapist, nor to make every man responsible for my fears, but to try to help EVERY man and woman  understand why those fears exist, and to enlist the help of EVERY man and woman in reinforcing by their own words, behavior, and  influence on others, to simply acknowledge that fear, accept it as real and valid, and to contribute to creating a culture in which it is neither dismissed nor pandered to, but simply made unnecessary because sexual assault becomes so rare, and its impact so reduced that it&#8217;s just a non-issue for all practical purposes.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t fear the bubonic plague anymore, because it&#8217;s known, diagnosed readily when it does occur, and readily treated without blaming and shaming the victim.</p>
<p>When sexual assaults are likewise rare, identifiable in the sense that no one dismisses, denies, or shifts blame for them, and treatment for the victims is accessible, effective, and stigma-free, I&#8217;ll consider the point of that story to have been successfully internalized by our society.</p>
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		By: Yuri		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494713</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yuri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494713</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is an interesting concept. I strongly believe that there are people that think about rape, want that control, consider rape, but refrain from it because of risk of  punishment and social standing in society. I also believe that there are people that never consider rape and are disgusted by the idea. In war time, in countries that are in so much chaos, the ones that have considered rape see a chance to do so without fear of punishment and think they can get away with it or do so when they feel they can rape someone who won&#039;t tell. The thought is there, the want is there only for some. Not all men/woman have this impulse or want to rape. Some do. Your theory is interesting, but I don&#039;t think war time is a trigger. It&#039;s a chance to do what they have always wanted to do without getting caught.  Those who have never wanted to rape and never have wanted won&#039;t.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is an interesting concept. I strongly believe that there are people that think about rape, want that control, consider rape, but refrain from it because of risk of  punishment and social standing in society. I also believe that there are people that never consider rape and are disgusted by the idea. In war time, in countries that are in so much chaos, the ones that have considered rape see a chance to do so without fear of punishment and think they can get away with it or do so when they feel they can rape someone who won&#8217;t tell. The thought is there, the want is there only for some. Not all men/woman have this impulse or want to rape. Some do. Your theory is interesting, but I don&#8217;t think war time is a trigger. It&#8217;s a chance to do what they have always wanted to do without getting caught.  Those who have never wanted to rape and never have wanted won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Keith M Ellis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494712</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith M Ellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494712</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Wow&quot;, yeah, the issue isn&#039;t that you wouldn&#039;t assert, in my hypothetical scenario, that &quot;there is no killing switch in soldiers&quot; but, rather, that you wouldn&#039;t contest a &quot;killing switch&quot; by disingenuously asserting that there&#039;s a &quot;kill me switch&quot;.  Which, I notice, even now in your attempt at rebuttal to my hypothetical, you did not.  You simply denied the killing switch.  So why did you jump to the rhetorical device of a &quot;rape me switch&quot;?

It&#039;s not whether you&#039;re allowed to propose such a thing, or not, because, contrary to your new rhetorical tactic (now you&#039;re trying to divert us into arguing about censorship or somesuch), you&#039;re &quot;allowed&quot; to suggest this possibility.  What&#039;s important is that you think to do so, when you clearly don&#039;t believe there is such a thing, and when you haven&#039;t and clearly would not propose something similar in a similar argument, such as a hypothetical &quot;killing rage switch&quot;.  You should stop and think for a long, careful moment why you reached for that particular counterargument, knowing that it&#039;s as provocative as it is.  That is to say, you should face up to the implications that you chose it because it&#039;s as uniquely provocative as it is and then consider why you are relying upon provoking rather than arguing something more substantive.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Wow&#8221;, yeah, the issue isn&#8217;t that you wouldn&#8217;t assert, in my hypothetical scenario, that &#8220;there is no killing switch in soldiers&#8221; but, rather, that you wouldn&#8217;t contest a &#8220;killing switch&#8221; by disingenuously asserting that there&#8217;s a &#8220;kill me switch&#8221;.  Which, I notice, even now in your attempt at rebuttal to my hypothetical, you did not.  You simply denied the killing switch.  So why did you jump to the rhetorical device of a &#8220;rape me switch&#8221;?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not whether you&#8217;re allowed to propose such a thing, or not, because, contrary to your new rhetorical tactic (now you&#8217;re trying to divert us into arguing about censorship or somesuch), you&#8217;re &#8220;allowed&#8221; to suggest this possibility.  What&#8217;s important is that you think to do so, when you clearly don&#8217;t believe there is such a thing, and when you haven&#8217;t and clearly would not propose something similar in a similar argument, such as a hypothetical &#8220;killing rage switch&#8221;.  You should stop and think for a long, careful moment why you reached for that particular counterargument, knowing that it&#8217;s as provocative as it is.  That is to say, you should face up to the implications that you chose it because it&#8217;s as uniquely provocative as it is and then consider why you are relying upon provoking rather than arguing something more substantive.</p>
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		By: Marnie		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494711</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marnie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494711</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow, the whole &quot;I&#039;m rubber you&#039;re glue&quot; argument (see also, &quot;I know you are but what am I&quot;) isn&#039;t an argument. While a man might want to force his choice of mate to copulate with him, a woman has no evolutionary or psychological drive to have someone else decide to force her to copulate with a mate she didn&#039;t choose. Ultimately, women are as driven as men to find mates who produce healthy offspring and being raped takes that choice away from her so if you are going to propose the idea of a &quot;rape-me switch,&quot; you need to propose a mechanism by which this response would evolve into the human species. If you can&#039;t offer that, if you can&#039;t explain why a &quot;rape-me switch&quot; would exist, you can&#039;t ask us to consider your point.

But, of course, you are being disingenuous, you won&#039;t accept the rape switch and won&#039;t explain why you reject the idea, you just pull a completely nonsense theory out of your tush and claim that if we can&#039;t refute the nonsense, every other theory must be rejected too, in the same way a creationist might argue that if evolution cannot explain the origins of life, their personal vision of god must be true.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, the whole &#8220;I&#8217;m rubber you&#8217;re glue&#8221; argument (see also, &#8220;I know you are but what am I&#8221;) isn&#8217;t an argument. While a man might want to force his choice of mate to copulate with him, a woman has no evolutionary or psychological drive to have someone else decide to force her to copulate with a mate she didn&#8217;t choose. Ultimately, women are as driven as men to find mates who produce healthy offspring and being raped takes that choice away from her so if you are going to propose the idea of a &#8220;rape-me switch,&#8221; you need to propose a mechanism by which this response would evolve into the human species. If you can&#8217;t offer that, if you can&#8217;t explain why a &#8220;rape-me switch&#8221; would exist, you can&#8217;t ask us to consider your point.</p>
<p>But, of course, you are being disingenuous, you won&#8217;t accept the rape switch and won&#8217;t explain why you reject the idea, you just pull a completely nonsense theory out of your tush and claim that if we can&#8217;t refute the nonsense, every other theory must be rejected too, in the same way a creationist might argue that if evolution cannot explain the origins of life, their personal vision of god must be true.</p>
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		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494710</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494710</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow, you certainly are &quot;allowed&quot; to say it, but to be taken seriously you would be better off proposing it as a hypothesis and discussing why it is a hypothesis worth considering.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, you certainly are &#8220;allowed&#8221; to say it, but to be taken seriously you would be better off proposing it as a hypothesis and discussing why it is a hypothesis worth considering.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494709</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494709</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Funny how nobody is allowed to say there&#039;s a rape-me switch in women.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny how nobody is allowed to say there&#8217;s a rape-me switch in women.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494708</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494708</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would say there is no killing switch in soldiers.

But I guess if you get to posit someone else&#039;s thoughts that makes you win any argument you like, huh?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say there is no killing switch in soldiers.</p>
<p>But I guess if you get to posit someone else&#8217;s thoughts that makes you win any argument you like, huh?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Keith M Ellis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/09/17/the-rape-switch-again/#comment-494707</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith M Ellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=13453#comment-494707</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s really kind of remarkable how reliable are certain kinds of arguments from certain kinds of people in this kind of discussion.  If we&#039;d been talking about a &quot;killing rage switch&quot; that&#039;s flipped for soldiers in combat, would a tendentious commenter like &quot;wow&quot; above have reached for the rhetorical device of disingenuously asserting the existence of a &quot;be killed switch&quot; by others in combat?

Well, no, it clearly would have been a non-sequitor but, more to the point, it wouldn&#039;t have the shocking, offensive emotional resonance.  Even more to the point, it wouldn&#039;t be deflecting the discussion about men raping toward a discussion of women being responsible for being raped.  It was done in bad-faith — unlike many such arguments, it wasn&#039;t an earnest attempt to argue that women ask for it.  But, see, &quot;wow&quot; thinks he/she wins both ways: either we redirect our disgust at the proposition back onto our own proposition (the preferred response), or we seriously consider the possibility and the discussion is successfully diverted and obscured.  As the result of an absurd rebuttal proposition that wouldn&#039;t have been offered were we talking about a &quot;cannablism switch&quot;.

Also, I think that this is related to the &quot;why do people react this way&quot; question.  Because a sad and revealing aspect of people who get worked up on that side of discussion about sexual violence is that they very frequently move very quickly to rhetoric and actions that are deliberately threatening to women.  They&#039;ll assert, either in earnest or not, that women are responsible for the sexual violence they suffer.  They&#039;ll stalk and threaten.  They will become, in a word, transgressive.  And that tells us a lot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s really kind of remarkable how reliable are certain kinds of arguments from certain kinds of people in this kind of discussion.  If we&#8217;d been talking about a &#8220;killing rage switch&#8221; that&#8217;s flipped for soldiers in combat, would a tendentious commenter like &#8220;wow&#8221; above have reached for the rhetorical device of disingenuously asserting the existence of a &#8220;be killed switch&#8221; by others in combat?</p>
<p>Well, no, it clearly would have been a non-sequitor but, more to the point, it wouldn&#8217;t have the shocking, offensive emotional resonance.  Even more to the point, it wouldn&#8217;t be deflecting the discussion about men raping toward a discussion of women being responsible for being raped.  It was done in bad-faith — unlike many such arguments, it wasn&#8217;t an earnest attempt to argue that women ask for it.  But, see, &#8220;wow&#8221; thinks he/she wins both ways: either we redirect our disgust at the proposition back onto our own proposition (the preferred response), or we seriously consider the possibility and the discussion is successfully diverted and obscured.  As the result of an absurd rebuttal proposition that wouldn&#8217;t have been offered were we talking about a &#8220;cannablism switch&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also, I think that this is related to the &#8220;why do people react this way&#8221; question.  Because a sad and revealing aspect of people who get worked up on that side of discussion about sexual violence is that they very frequently move very quickly to rhetoric and actions that are deliberately threatening to women.  They&#8217;ll assert, either in earnest or not, that women are responsible for the sexual violence they suffer.  They&#8217;ll stalk and threaten.  They will become, in a word, transgressive.  And that tells us a lot.</p>
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