I used the word logic loosely, to include things like argumentation or informal logic, reasoning or Bayesian logic, etc

In that sense I did claim all racism has resulted from faulty logic, but I haven’t any thing to back that up other than the fact I can’t think of a counter example.

I’m curious what you are referring to by different historical threads and modern American or western racism.

I’m using derision as a synonyme of words like in Zivkovic’s comment: “Nobody wants to be on the side that is mocked, laughed at, or denigrated” and I’m also assuming this definition from an etymology dictionnary : c.1400, from O.Fr. derision “derision, mockery” (13c.), from L. derisionem (nom. derisio), noun of action from pp. stem of deridere “ridicule,” from de- “down” (see de-) + ridere “to laugh.”.

I agree that derision is rampant in a lot of religious present and past commentary, and it’s also part of our cultural ethos: it’s in internet comments on most any subject, its a radio style, its a lot of what fox news is, etc. And in our culture most everybody, even if they don’t use derision overtly, have trouble not slipping derision into their arguments using subtle allusions or tonal shifts.

But usage does not make it justified, not that you said it does, and if I look at groups who use a lot of derision I think it is safe to say that it is not very effective when you look at the big picture.

When Nye says things about the craziness of religious people or that in a couple of centuries their world view won’t exist, I think that is derision, you can even see him wanting to say crazy again but he stops himself opting instead for long winded and roundabout ways of saying the same thing.

On the main issue of the video, making parents who believe in a religion, or some facts of some religions, to “think of the children” and Americas future, I doubt he is having any real effect, and I don’t think aiming to shame parents, if that was that means to the end, has better side effects than derision. If the video created guilt, and did it ethically, I might agree, but the video needs a lot more (and less statements that are speculative, or open to debate). So the more I think about this and view the video the more I think what the video really has going for it is Bill Nye, nice editing, a simple format, and the wish to reduce belief in creationism.

I would like to see the critique of what you are calling “derision” applied to creationists by someone on this thread. It is a primary tool of theirs, but it is so normal coming from religious quarters that it is rarely commented on.

But actually, I would not call what Nye is doing derision. It is clearly shaming. (Perhaps shaming is derision with a purpose…)

It is not one or the other.

“The appropriate question is how do we make “acceptance of evolution” something that is normal and desirable and not embarrassing to profess, and at the same time “belief in creationism” something that IS embarrassing to profess, and better left unspoken.”

If you are following the long+short term frame model of change and are referring to the need of setting the stage for the future, I don’t disagree. Where I diverge, and I think from @07. Bora Zivkovice also, is on the usefulness of things like derision, e.g.: it is one thing to not speak of xyz because most people around you will argue strongly against your point or disagree, it is quite another to not speak about xyz because you fear derision.

As a rule derision is not a productive tool to set the stage for, or promote, learning or change, and its value doesn’t depend on the intended audience. And that’s partly because it’s not possible to contain its use, i.e.: if derision is used to partly make point x, it’s use will spread elsewhere, in this case maybe only slightly, but it will spread elsewhere, especially when coming from an authority figure. Do we want more derision used in social discourse at the expense of reasonable arguments ? Do we want to facilitate intimidation ?

Again the derision in Nye’s video is very light, it even contains touches of humor in my opinion, but if asked if the video could be more effective, if the derisive components could be skipped, I say yes, of course, there’s lots of options, stronger ones and to better effect.