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	Comments on: Koch-funded group proves global warming is not a hoax and is caused by humans	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494035</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494035</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Juice, you apparently don&#039;t understand the nature of the BEST study. Your comment seriously misrepresents it.  We&#039;ve discussed this here before on this blog.

Yes, this is to be taken seriously.  You, however, are a climate change and science denialist.  Not allowed on this site.  Don&#039;t come back.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juice, you apparently don&#8217;t understand the nature of the BEST study. Your comment seriously misrepresents it.  We&#8217;ve discussed this here before on this blog.</p>
<p>Yes, this is to be taken seriously.  You, however, are a climate change and science denialist.  Not allowed on this site.  Don&#8217;t come back.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Juice		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494034</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juice]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494034</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wait, people here actually believe that the practice of burning carbon based fuel will reduced soon? Some are even talking as if it will be eliminated in the near future? My god, how deluded can you get?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, people here actually believe that the practice of burning carbon based fuel will reduced soon? Some are even talking as if it will be eliminated in the near future? My god, how deluded can you get?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Juice		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494033</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Juice]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494033</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Saying something is &quot;Koch funded&quot; as if it means something just makes you look stupid. You know what else is Koch funded?

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston
New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell Medical Center
Johns Hopkins University
Institute for Integrative Cancer Research at MIT
Kansas State University
Kansas-based artists and musicians
PBS
Deerfield Academy
American Ballet Theater
New York City Ballet
Lincoln Center
Metropolitan Museum of Art
American Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History
and the list goes on.

Would you have an article called &quot;Koch funded museum supports the theory of human evolution&quot; or &quot;Koch funded university actually does cancer research&quot; and expect to be taken seriously?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saying something is &#8220;Koch funded&#8221; as if it means something just makes you look stupid. You know what else is Koch funded?</p>
<p>Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center<br />
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston<br />
New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell Medical Center<br />
Johns Hopkins University<br />
Institute for Integrative Cancer Research at MIT<br />
Kansas State University<br />
Kansas-based artists and musicians<br />
PBS<br />
Deerfield Academy<br />
American Ballet Theater<br />
New York City Ballet<br />
Lincoln Center<br />
Metropolitan Museum of Art<br />
American Museum of Natural History<br />
Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History<br />
and the list goes on.</p>
<p>Would you have an article called &#8220;Koch funded museum supports the theory of human evolution&#8221; or &#8220;Koch funded university actually does cancer research&#8221; and expect to be taken seriously?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494032</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 01:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494032</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Not yet.  We are still just seeing little leaks.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not yet.  We are still just seeing little leaks.</p>
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		<title>
		By: daedalus2u		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494031</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daedalus2u]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 01:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494031</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Apparently the paper is out.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/28/602151/bombshell-koch-funded-study-finds-global-warming-is-real-on-the-high-end-and-essentially-all-due-to-carbon-pollution/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently the paper is out.</p>
<p><a href="http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/28/602151/bombshell-koch-funded-study-finds-global-warming-is-real-on-the-high-end-and-essentially-all-due-to-carbon-pollution/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/28/602151/bombshell-koch-funded-study-finds-global-warming-is-real-on-the-high-end-and-essentially-all-due-to-carbon-pollution/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: daedalus2u		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494030</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daedalus2u]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 00:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494030</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[yogi-one, the problem is that the externality of putting CO2 into the atmosphere is &quot;free&quot;, that is no one has to pay anything to put CO2 into the atmosphere...yet.

Even though putting CO2 into the atmosphere is &quot;free&quot;, it does result in costs.  The drought and heat wave that has destroyed this years corn crop is due in part to AGW.  The effects of that extreme weather event are going to ripple down to corn farmers, corn purchasers, corn consumers and eventually to every kind of food that has a corn-based ingredient in it,  Then there will be follow-on effects on every type of food that can be substituted for a corn-derived product.  That is everything.

Everyone is going to have to pay for higher food prices as a result of this extreme weather event.  Are the Kochs going to have to pay for higher food prices too?  Yes, but the profits they made because the externality of putting CO2 in the atmosphere is way more than what they will have to pay for food.

As bad as the AGW denialism that the Kochs are pushing is, I think the faux-Libertarian political posturing is more dangerous.  The only reason there is AGW is because the externality of putting CO2 in the atmosphere is not accounted for in the cost of fossil fuel consumption.  Real and intellectually honest Libertarians are willing to pay their way and not cheat and steal from everyone else by having externalities that are not fairly priced.  The Kochs are not real Libertarians, they are fascists, looting the commons along with the other Republicans.

The Kochs have pledged to spend $400 million to get Romney elected.  Romney&#039;s plan is to cut taxes for the wealthy, cut spending on social programs, and increase defense spending by $2 trillion.

They don&#039;t care about trivialities like “morality”.  They follow the golden rule, they have the gold, so they make the rules.  They don&#039;t care how many people die because of extreme weather, because of flooding, because of starvation.  It is exactly the same as the coal mine operators not caring about the miners getting black lung, or the weapons manufacturers caring about the civilians their wars of convenience cause.

Republicans are shorting US Treasuries and then blocking the raising of the US debt limit to drive the value of US Treasuries down.  Why?  Because they can, and to them, government is just another way to get money.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yogi-one, the problem is that the externality of putting CO2 into the atmosphere is &#8220;free&#8221;, that is no one has to pay anything to put CO2 into the atmosphere&#8230;yet.</p>
<p>Even though putting CO2 into the atmosphere is &#8220;free&#8221;, it does result in costs.  The drought and heat wave that has destroyed this years corn crop is due in part to AGW.  The effects of that extreme weather event are going to ripple down to corn farmers, corn purchasers, corn consumers and eventually to every kind of food that has a corn-based ingredient in it,  Then there will be follow-on effects on every type of food that can be substituted for a corn-derived product.  That is everything.</p>
<p>Everyone is going to have to pay for higher food prices as a result of this extreme weather event.  Are the Kochs going to have to pay for higher food prices too?  Yes, but the profits they made because the externality of putting CO2 in the atmosphere is way more than what they will have to pay for food.</p>
<p>As bad as the AGW denialism that the Kochs are pushing is, I think the faux-Libertarian political posturing is more dangerous.  The only reason there is AGW is because the externality of putting CO2 in the atmosphere is not accounted for in the cost of fossil fuel consumption.  Real and intellectually honest Libertarians are willing to pay their way and not cheat and steal from everyone else by having externalities that are not fairly priced.  The Kochs are not real Libertarians, they are fascists, looting the commons along with the other Republicans.</p>
<p>The Kochs have pledged to spend $400 million to get Romney elected.  Romney&#8217;s plan is to cut taxes for the wealthy, cut spending on social programs, and increase defense spending by $2 trillion.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t care about trivialities like “morality”.  They follow the golden rule, they have the gold, so they make the rules.  They don&#8217;t care how many people die because of extreme weather, because of flooding, because of starvation.  It is exactly the same as the coal mine operators not caring about the miners getting black lung, or the weapons manufacturers caring about the civilians their wars of convenience cause.</p>
<p>Republicans are shorting US Treasuries and then blocking the raising of the US debt limit to drive the value of US Treasuries down.  Why?  Because they can, and to them, government is just another way to get money.</p>
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		<title>
		By: yogi-one		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494029</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yogi-one]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 22:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494029</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good comments here. I see it like this; the Koch bros inherited their fortune, and along with it the ties to the fossil fuel industry. At the time their dad made the investments in oil tech, it seems like they were on the right side of the equation (i.e.- on the front side of the technology, prepared to catch the wave of expansion made possible by inexpensive and plentiful fossil fuel.) In the intervening decades, the wave has crested (as all waves eventually do). They Koch bros aren&#039;t stupid; they know this. There&#039;s still plenty of profits to be derived however, because the wave is still big (you can ride it for a long time AFTER it has crested, if you are well-positioned). So it served them to feed the denialist movement as long as there are still good profits to be made. At some point, they will bail out. They are savvy businessmen, and from a purely profit-oriented standpoint, what they are doing is right and makes perfect sense.
Where they fail is in the moral dimension. Those big profit margins can only be made at the expense of biodiversity decimation, and environmental degradation that will lower the standard of life for all of the earth&#039;s current human civilization.
That&#039;s wrong, and, not being stupid, they must know that too.
but the moral dimension is not accounted for in the economic model, and there&#039;s no option to maintain the highest profits while simultaneously addressing the moral dimension.
An additional factor is infrastructure investment. People ask, why don&#039;t they just switch over to financing an alternative energy source? Well, for the same reason you don&#039;t just quit using the road system in the USA even though you know you are contributing to the problem by driving your car; there is no alternative infrastructure for you to invest in, and you still need to make money everyday.
My point is that this discussion about the global warming and the Koch bros always dumbs down to a very simplistic white-hats/black-hats thing. The hippies are the good guys and the Kochs and others with big interest in fossil fuels are the bad guys. It makes great drama and will even feed Greg&#039;s need for the more vitriolic comments he&#039;s been missing.
But to solve the problem, we need to think more realistically about it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments here. I see it like this; the Koch bros inherited their fortune, and along with it the ties to the fossil fuel industry. At the time their dad made the investments in oil tech, it seems like they were on the right side of the equation (i.e.- on the front side of the technology, prepared to catch the wave of expansion made possible by inexpensive and plentiful fossil fuel.) In the intervening decades, the wave has crested (as all waves eventually do). They Koch bros aren&#8217;t stupid; they know this. There&#8217;s still plenty of profits to be derived however, because the wave is still big (you can ride it for a long time AFTER it has crested, if you are well-positioned). So it served them to feed the denialist movement as long as there are still good profits to be made. At some point, they will bail out. They are savvy businessmen, and from a purely profit-oriented standpoint, what they are doing is right and makes perfect sense.<br />
Where they fail is in the moral dimension. Those big profit margins can only be made at the expense of biodiversity decimation, and environmental degradation that will lower the standard of life for all of the earth&#8217;s current human civilization.<br />
That&#8217;s wrong, and, not being stupid, they must know that too.<br />
but the moral dimension is not accounted for in the economic model, and there&#8217;s no option to maintain the highest profits while simultaneously addressing the moral dimension.<br />
An additional factor is infrastructure investment. People ask, why don&#8217;t they just switch over to financing an alternative energy source? Well, for the same reason you don&#8217;t just quit using the road system in the USA even though you know you are contributing to the problem by driving your car; there is no alternative infrastructure for you to invest in, and you still need to make money everyday.<br />
My point is that this discussion about the global warming and the Koch bros always dumbs down to a very simplistic white-hats/black-hats thing. The hippies are the good guys and the Kochs and others with big interest in fossil fuels are the bad guys. It makes great drama and will even feed Greg&#8217;s need for the more vitriolic comments he&#8217;s been missing.<br />
But to solve the problem, we need to think more realistically about it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494028</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 22:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494028</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I assume everyone has read this: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/04/02/an-excellent-book-on-energy-be/

If no, go do so now! (the book, not the post ... or listen to the podcast, I suppose)

Electricity is kinda portable, and with electric cars in widespread use that there are suddenly 50 million or so batteries to hook up to the Smart Grid.  They way I rekon it, if 80% of cars were electric, five times more people took (energy efficent) mass transit than currently take mass transit, 30% of the population moved to within 10% of the distance they now commute to work, the Smart Grid were implemented, geothermal was maxed out and we committed to growing 40% of our food by calories in energy efficient low-chemical use green houses and built a large number of highly efficient solar plants and a shitload of windmills, we could actually start pumping carbon INTO rather than OUT OF the ground.

If 90% of the materials by bulk to do this were made in the US by union labor we&#039;d have a kick-ass economy, a clean society, effectively no unemployment.

But every one of those proposals would be opposed by about 55% of the people because they are idiots, er, I mean, Republicans or Teabaggers.

The above numbers are approximate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume everyone has read this: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/04/02/an-excellent-book-on-energy-be/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/04/02/an-excellent-book-on-energy-be/</a></p>
<p>If no, go do so now! (the book, not the post &#8230; or listen to the podcast, I suppose)</p>
<p>Electricity is kinda portable, and with electric cars in widespread use that there are suddenly 50 million or so batteries to hook up to the Smart Grid.  They way I rekon it, if 80% of cars were electric, five times more people took (energy efficent) mass transit than currently take mass transit, 30% of the population moved to within 10% of the distance they now commute to work, the Smart Grid were implemented, geothermal was maxed out and we committed to growing 40% of our food by calories in energy efficient low-chemical use green houses and built a large number of highly efficient solar plants and a shitload of windmills, we could actually start pumping carbon INTO rather than OUT OF the ground.</p>
<p>If 90% of the materials by bulk to do this were made in the US by union labor we&#8217;d have a kick-ass economy, a clean society, effectively no unemployment.</p>
<p>But every one of those proposals would be opposed by about 55% of the people because they are idiots, er, I mean, Republicans or Teabaggers.</p>
<p>The above numbers are approximate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SplatterPatterns		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494027</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SplatterPatterns]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494027</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I’m also a fanboy, seriously, of geothermal, as it basically solves the intermittency problem.  Fissile fuels have utility considerations that go well beyond daedalus2u excellent comments on how they factor in the use of the money “commodity”.  FFs are handy as well as cheap; being portable and available when wanted (unless you forgot to check the gauge).  Any renewable, lacking portability, is only a niche occupant with a additional hit to utility from intermittent response to demand.

But it’s very unclear if geo will actually work well enough to have large scale viability.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m also a fanboy, seriously, of geothermal, as it basically solves the intermittency problem.  Fissile fuels have utility considerations that go well beyond daedalus2u excellent comments on how they factor in the use of the money “commodity”.  FFs are handy as well as cheap; being portable and available when wanted (unless you forgot to check the gauge).  Any renewable, lacking portability, is only a niche occupant with a additional hit to utility from intermittent response to demand.</p>
<p>But it’s very unclear if geo will actually work well enough to have large scale viability.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SplatterPatterns		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/07/27/koch-funded-group-proves-global-warming-is-not-a-hoax-and-is-caused-by-humans/#comment-494026</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SplatterPatterns]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 20:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/?p=12982#comment-494026</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Personally, liked this one from Lucia&#039;s comment string.

srp (Comment #100202)

“He’s [Watts] discovered the satellite records of the ancient astronauts. Complete global coverage of temperature starting from the time of the pyramids. Next step is for Mosher to push von Daniken to archive his data properly.”]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, liked this one from Lucia&#8217;s comment string.</p>
<p>srp (Comment #100202)</p>
<p>“He’s [Watts] discovered the satellite records of the ancient astronauts. Complete global coverage of temperature starting from the time of the pyramids. Next step is for Mosher to push von Daniken to archive his data properly.”</p>
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