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	Comments on: Teaching After The Test: An argument for a national school schedule	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Martha		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493068</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493068</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe those long weeks of summer vacation are a good time for standardized testing. It will leave the whole school year (in our state cut to about 180 days because of budget crises) for instruction and perhaps learning. It would also provide a few summer jobs for teachers who have lost 5-10 days of pay the past few years because of budget crises -- they could administer the tests.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe those long weeks of summer vacation are a good time for standardized testing. It will leave the whole school year (in our state cut to about 180 days because of budget crises) for instruction and perhaps learning. It would also provide a few summer jobs for teachers who have lost 5-10 days of pay the past few years because of budget crises &#8212; they could administer the tests.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493067</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493067</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg, I completely agree with your two points about AP exam scheduling.  I find the current system obtrusive and frustrating.   The school at which I teach has a fair number of kids who feel compelled to overload on AP classes and for two weeks a large number of kids are absent from my classes.  Our school year ends during the 3rd week of May so I get bombarded with kids seeking help with material they missed as the final exam approaches.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, I completely agree with your two points about AP exam scheduling.  I find the current system obtrusive and frustrating.   The school at which I teach has a fair number of kids who feel compelled to overload on AP classes and for two weeks a large number of kids are absent from my classes.  Our school year ends during the 3rd week of May so I get bombarded with kids seeking help with material they missed as the final exam approaches.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dr. George William Dole		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493066</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr. George William Dole]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493066</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Although this reply is not totally on topic it is on topic for your story Headline. My Headline would read, ?Teaching after ANY Test. By that I mean: 1. Test, 2. Review test thoroughly, 3. Then retest using different questions.  In 2005-06 I taught 8th Grade Algebra-1 at Stephen M. White Middle School in the LA Unified School System. As a first year Algebra teacher CA education policy dictated that ALL my &quot;A&quot; and &quot;B&quot; 7th Grade tested students were distributed to the 3 other &quot;Veteran&quot; Algebra-1 teachers. With this situation I and all the math teachers were pressured by &quot;No Child Left Behind&quot; policies to create &quot;A&quot;, &quot;B&quot; and &quot;C&quot; students from &quot;C&quot;, &quot;D&quot;, and &quot;F&quot; tested 7th graders. At my first PTA meeting I was warned by my Veteran colleagues that I would be roasted but not to worry. The 3 teachers &quot;knew&quot; that almost all of their students would get mostly &quot;D&quot;s and &quot;F&quot;s and a few getting C&#039;s. None were expected to get &quot;B&quot;s or &quot;A&quot;s. Why? Because they had poor 7th grade math skills and got &quot;Social&quot; rather than &quot;Merit&quot; Promotions. What to do? Well, a clever 7th grade counselor at S.M. White told me the &quot;Secret of Algebra-1 survival&quot;. Ready to hear it? Ok. &quot;Re-test any student with a low test grade&quot;. He said they would improve and it would reduce the crying from Jan to June of those who normally would get &quot;D&quot;s and &quot;F&quot;s but could earn &quot;C&quot;s and &quot;B&quot;s. Well, I took his advice because I was desperate to keep my new job. I thoroughly reviewed each test the day after I graded and gave them all out. Two days later I gave a retest to anyone who got a &quot;D&quot; or &quot;F&quot;. You know, the idea worked. By Christmas I had 9 &quot;A&quot;s and 29 &quot;B&quot;s from &quot;Numerically Illiterate&quot;(&quot;Math Stupid&quot; as others said) kids. The Spring semester was better - 19 &quot;A&quot;s and 34 &quot;B&quot;s. Although I was  grading papers everywhere, all the time except maybe when I slept or took a shower but the results to where worth the effort. That&#039;s it. Hope it helps. Good luck in September with &quot;No Child Left Behind&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although this reply is not totally on topic it is on topic for your story Headline. My Headline would read, ?Teaching after ANY Test. By that I mean: 1. Test, 2. Review test thoroughly, 3. Then retest using different questions.  In 2005-06 I taught 8th Grade Algebra-1 at Stephen M. White Middle School in the LA Unified School System. As a first year Algebra teacher CA education policy dictated that ALL my &#8220;A&#8221; and &#8220;B&#8221; 7th Grade tested students were distributed to the 3 other &#8220;Veteran&#8221; Algebra-1 teachers. With this situation I and all the math teachers were pressured by &#8220;No Child Left Behind&#8221; policies to create &#8220;A&#8221;, &#8220;B&#8221; and &#8220;C&#8221; students from &#8220;C&#8221;, &#8220;D&#8221;, and &#8220;F&#8221; tested 7th graders. At my first PTA meeting I was warned by my Veteran colleagues that I would be roasted but not to worry. The 3 teachers &#8220;knew&#8221; that almost all of their students would get mostly &#8220;D&#8221;s and &#8220;F&#8221;s and a few getting C&#8217;s. None were expected to get &#8220;B&#8221;s or &#8220;A&#8221;s. Why? Because they had poor 7th grade math skills and got &#8220;Social&#8221; rather than &#8220;Merit&#8221; Promotions. What to do? Well, a clever 7th grade counselor at S.M. White told me the &#8220;Secret of Algebra-1 survival&#8221;. Ready to hear it? Ok. &#8220;Re-test any student with a low test grade&#8221;. He said they would improve and it would reduce the crying from Jan to June of those who normally would get &#8220;D&#8221;s and &#8220;F&#8221;s but could earn &#8220;C&#8221;s and &#8220;B&#8221;s. Well, I took his advice because I was desperate to keep my new job. I thoroughly reviewed each test the day after I graded and gave them all out. Two days later I gave a retest to anyone who got a &#8220;D&#8221; or &#8220;F&#8221;. You know, the idea worked. By Christmas I had 9 &#8220;A&#8221;s and 29 &#8220;B&#8221;s from &#8220;Numerically Illiterate&#8221;(&#8220;Math Stupid&#8221; as others said) kids. The Spring semester was better &#8211; 19 &#8220;A&#8221;s and 34 &#8220;B&#8221;s. Although I was  grading papers everywhere, all the time except maybe when I slept or took a shower but the results to where worth the effort. That&#8217;s it. Hope it helps. Good luck in September with &#8220;No Child Left Behind&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Genesee11		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493065</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Genesee11]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493065</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As the parent of a kid who took AP&#039;s this year, I can testify that it was a HUGE waste of time for her to continue to attend those classes. It was busywork to meet the requirement that they attend.

However, there is still something to be said for local schedules. I don&#039;t want to have the same spring break as my brother in Texas--it&#039;ll be spring there, but still the dead of winter here. Most New York schools still lack air conditioning. If we started school before Labor Day, as my relatives in California do, we&#039;d be roasting in our classrooms. And another reader pointed out that snow days can significantly change the year end date. We lost a scheduled day off in May to make up for a snowstorm in early April.

What I&#039;d REALLY like to see is the ability to adopt a national schedule for classes that are nationally tested. If the kids are done with AP exams by May 10, then they should be done with class attendance then, too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the parent of a kid who took AP&#8217;s this year, I can testify that it was a HUGE waste of time for her to continue to attend those classes. It was busywork to meet the requirement that they attend.</p>
<p>However, there is still something to be said for local schedules. I don&#8217;t want to have the same spring break as my brother in Texas&#8211;it&#8217;ll be spring there, but still the dead of winter here. Most New York schools still lack air conditioning. If we started school before Labor Day, as my relatives in California do, we&#8217;d be roasting in our classrooms. And another reader pointed out that snow days can significantly change the year end date. We lost a scheduled day off in May to make up for a snowstorm in early April.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;d REALLY like to see is the ability to adopt a national schedule for classes that are nationally tested. If the kids are done with AP exams by May 10, then they should be done with class attendance then, too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493064</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 15:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493064</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Just listen to what people are saying here – to appease Washington DC&quot;

Nope, that&#039;s what you&#039;re hearing because, like any nutter, you&#039;re running all sides of the conversation in your head.

You&#039;re merely rabidly afraid of Washington since you have been brainwashed into thinking its bad.

&quot;This is not ‘power to the people’,&quot;

Yes it is.

&#039;the people&#039; are a group. The federal government is the representative of that group (the fact that this is often not the case is because of your meddling in it for fundamentalist credo reasons).

 &quot;it is control, but for what purpose ?&quot;

So that the whining predispositions of those who don&#039;t like free thinking can enforce their ideals on their children, and even better, if it gets forced on other people&#039;s children (so your own don&#039;t get any funny ideas that don&#039;t come from you).

&quot;If we begin to treat children as a State asset&quot;

You&#039;ve been treating them as a corporation asset for decades. You haven&#039;t complained about that yet. Why start now?

Oh, because you&#039;re afraid not that it will be &quot;state asset&quot; but stop being &quot;corporate asset&quot; or &quot;parental asset&quot; since you believe in the primacy of corporations.

How, for the love of god, do you get from &quot;state school curriculum&#039; to &#039;state asset&#039;???

Truly there is no thought going on in that brain-pan. Just emotion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Just listen to what people are saying here – to appease Washington DC&#8221;</p>
<p>Nope, that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re hearing because, like any nutter, you&#8217;re running all sides of the conversation in your head.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re merely rabidly afraid of Washington since you have been brainwashed into thinking its bad.</p>
<p>&#8220;This is not ‘power to the people’,&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes it is.</p>
<p>&#8216;the people&#8217; are a group. The federal government is the representative of that group (the fact that this is often not the case is because of your meddling in it for fundamentalist credo reasons).</p>
<p> &#8220;it is control, but for what purpose ?&#8221;</p>
<p>So that the whining predispositions of those who don&#8217;t like free thinking can enforce their ideals on their children, and even better, if it gets forced on other people&#8217;s children (so your own don&#8217;t get any funny ideas that don&#8217;t come from you).</p>
<p>&#8220;If we begin to treat children as a State asset&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve been treating them as a corporation asset for decades. You haven&#8217;t complained about that yet. Why start now?</p>
<p>Oh, because you&#8217;re afraid not that it will be &#8220;state asset&#8221; but stop being &#8220;corporate asset&#8221; or &#8220;parental asset&#8221; since you believe in the primacy of corporations.</p>
<p>How, for the love of god, do you get from &#8220;state school curriculum&#8217; to &#8216;state asset&#8217;???</p>
<p>Truly there is no thought going on in that brain-pan. Just emotion.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493063</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493063</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[William, you are missing the point.  Innovation and creativity is very important and the current system (and many alternatives) stifle that at the classroom level.  But I&#039;m pretty sure that if a thousand small groups of people had to reinvent the wheel independently we&#039;d have a bunch of sucky wheels and we will have wasted a lot of time.

Also, your argument is exactly the argument that creationists make in order to separate individual school districts from the heard and force their religion on the children.  That is not acceptable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William, you are missing the point.  Innovation and creativity is very important and the current system (and many alternatives) stifle that at the classroom level.  But I&#8217;m pretty sure that if a thousand small groups of people had to reinvent the wheel independently we&#8217;d have a bunch of sucky wheels and we will have wasted a lot of time.</p>
<p>Also, your argument is exactly the argument that creationists make in order to separate individual school districts from the heard and force their religion on the children.  That is not acceptable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493062</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493062</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Why stop there ?  Let&#039;s propose a Global school schedule, that will level the playing field to ensure that no one takes advantage.

Just listen to what people are saying here - to appease Washington DC and get money, we need to jenuflect at the altar of conformity - will that support creativity and innovation ?  This is not &#039;power to the people&#039;, but the opposite, it is control, but for what purpose ?  If we begin to treat children as a State asset, then this sort of control looks like a good idea.  The opposite is happening however, in that distributed technology and social media will allow for innovative and unique solutions in learning - the revolution will be digitized.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why stop there ?  Let&#8217;s propose a Global school schedule, that will level the playing field to ensure that no one takes advantage.</p>
<p>Just listen to what people are saying here &#8211; to appease Washington DC and get money, we need to jenuflect at the altar of conformity &#8211; will that support creativity and innovation ?  This is not &#8216;power to the people&#8217;, but the opposite, it is control, but for what purpose ?  If we begin to treat children as a State asset, then this sort of control looks like a good idea.  The opposite is happening however, in that distributed technology and social media will allow for innovative and unique solutions in learning &#8211; the revolution will be digitized.</p>
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		By: Paul Kramer		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493061</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Kramer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493061</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great idea but probably wishful thinking. Public schools are the last bastion of local authority, control, etc. Although such are subject to state control regarding the duration of the school year, such periods were carefully picked centuries ago based on differing concerns; e.g., the growing season. However, if we could get the Feds to offer the states money to conform, there&#039;s a possibly of a standardized system. Short of such, we&#039;re going to see a &quot;Nobody tells us what to do!&quot; attitude.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great idea but probably wishful thinking. Public schools are the last bastion of local authority, control, etc. Although such are subject to state control regarding the duration of the school year, such periods were carefully picked centuries ago based on differing concerns; e.g., the growing season. However, if we could get the Feds to offer the states money to conform, there&#8217;s a possibly of a standardized system. Short of such, we&#8217;re going to see a &#8220;Nobody tells us what to do!&#8221; attitude.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cee		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493060</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493060</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That issue of exams over, and still have a month of school is every teachers headache. The students are in shut down mode and most times this is where behavior issues spike. Being a science educator, i had to find fun projects - strickly hands on labs to keep them engaged. I cannot say for other subject areas but that must be surely a challenge. The issue of time line to grade these exams poses a problem but if we go to computerized exams kids can be tested the last 2 weeks of school and scores can be generated even quicker. Grading essays will pose a challenge, so probably administering the exam in two sections by giving the written portion earlier might help with grading time lines, then doing the MC at the end of the year.

I also often wonder why is it so difficult for this country to have a standardized holiday sytem for all states and school systems. We are one country but our eductaional system operates like 52 different countries. Thanks to the work behind common core, the curriculum is finally coming on stream to have all states focussing on the same content. Now we need to move to a nationwide exam with common core. Finally no longer will our transient student population have to miss key topics becuase the state they relocated from was teaching earth science and the state they moved to is teaching life science.  Change is inevitable and realistically we all need to have common holidays for these students. Other nations do this and so can we.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That issue of exams over, and still have a month of school is every teachers headache. The students are in shut down mode and most times this is where behavior issues spike. Being a science educator, i had to find fun projects &#8211; strickly hands on labs to keep them engaged. I cannot say for other subject areas but that must be surely a challenge. The issue of time line to grade these exams poses a problem but if we go to computerized exams kids can be tested the last 2 weeks of school and scores can be generated even quicker. Grading essays will pose a challenge, so probably administering the exam in two sections by giving the written portion earlier might help with grading time lines, then doing the MC at the end of the year.</p>
<p>I also often wonder why is it so difficult for this country to have a standardized holiday sytem for all states and school systems. We are one country but our eductaional system operates like 52 different countries. Thanks to the work behind common core, the curriculum is finally coming on stream to have all states focussing on the same content. Now we need to move to a nationwide exam with common core. Finally no longer will our transient student population have to miss key topics becuase the state they relocated from was teaching earth science and the state they moved to is teaching life science.  Change is inevitable and realistically we all need to have common holidays for these students. Other nations do this and so can we.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493059</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/05/16/teaching-after-the-test-an-arg/#comment-493059</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The most interesting response came from one 11th grade boy: “These tests are just another way for the white man to make us look stupid.” Very perceptive thinking I’d say.&quot;

Or was it just playing the victim card, so that failure is not THEIR fault, but &quot;the man&quot;.

Ask that student how do you tell if they&#039;ve managed to learn the subject without testing? Ask how an employer will know if you can do the job if you haven&#039;t shown aptitude (and how can that aptitude be shown if not by showing test results)?

It comes across more as blame avoidance than preceptive comment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The most interesting response came from one 11th grade boy: “These tests are just another way for the white man to make us look stupid.” Very perceptive thinking I’d say.&#8221;</p>
<p>Or was it just playing the victim card, so that failure is not THEIR fault, but &#8220;the man&#8221;.</p>
<p>Ask that student how do you tell if they&#8217;ve managed to learn the subject without testing? Ask how an employer will know if you can do the job if you haven&#8217;t shown aptitude (and how can that aptitude be shown if not by showing test results)?</p>
<p>It comes across more as blame avoidance than preceptive comment.</p>
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