Comments on: Freedom of speech means sometimes you shut up

By: Joanie Mackowski

Joanie Mackowski — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 04:34:21 +0000

My comment’s so late: maybe the apocalypse is over already. Just noting the pleasure of reading this blog and many of the comments, the fascinating threshold between offense and grace. Maybe the freest speech is cheap junk made overseas, undersea, under the table: sweat-shop speech, guaranteed obsolete. I too am all for speech that’s grown, woven, or built to order phoneme by phoneme: maybe this is artisanal speech, not quite free (it takes time and materials), but definitely worth it.

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Fri, 18 May 2012 16:00:52 +0000

You prefer to not stand up to them. Other than criticizing those standing up against them, you seem to have done nothing. You know what that means, right?

Or is there useful thing you are doing that you would like to tell us about.

And yes, you need anti nazi cred if you want to legimately criticize others who are standing up to them, if you are going to do that here.

By: infoo

infoo — Fri, 18 May 2012 15:37:10 +0000

“The Nazis are bad. The idea is to poke them in the eye.”
Ideas like this are snack for nazi propaganda, you’re just generating golden spawn here

By: Rick

Rick — Fri, 18 May 2012 01:41:49 +0000

Sarcasm? Sarcasm has to be in specific context, and isn’t immune from the onus of making sense. I’m not disagreeing with everything you say though. I just think that one of the best weapons of the left is the inanity that issues forth from the mouths of the right – be they the ignorant right or the crazy right. When people are allowed (forced) to confront the insanity of what passes for fascist theory from the fascist’s own mouths, they recognize their bug-nuttery.

By: MatthewL

MatthewL — Thu, 17 May 2012 07:07:54 +0000

Sorry if I went OT. I guess I haven’t sufficient time, knowledge or interest to be of much use here.

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Thu, 17 May 2012 02:45:37 +0000

Rick, that was sarcasm.

Louise, in the big picture, over time, yes I give more attention to those folks in the US. But that would not matter. I could just as well ignore the skinheads and white supremacists in the US and still write about Gold Dawn. Freedom of speech, you know! Jeesh, Louse.

By: John D

John D — Thu, 17 May 2012 02:07:24 +0000

The whole idea that Greek neo-Nazis are a big concern is quite laughable. When I heard the news about these idiots I laughed out loud and then said “Good luck with that!” I am sure this party must think it is onto a great idea, but really… Greece is one of the poorest economies in Europe specializing in tourism and olive oil exports. The idea of a Greek racist nationalist uprising is comical. How quickly do they want to descend into third world status? Pretty quickly I think.

Yeah… good luck with that guys. There is nothing here to worry about… and it will be entertaining to watch. “Ohpa!”

By: Rick

Rick — Thu, 17 May 2012 02:01:38 +0000

Greg – “A skeptic can’t tell the difference between a Nazi and a Libertarian and a Monk because there are people out there who hate each of those sorts of folk with equal vehemence.” WTF? Now how am I going to read anything you write as if the author were lucid? Perhaps rage is a reason to step away from the keyboard.

By: Louise

Louise — Thu, 17 May 2012 01:17:25 +0000

I am getting a little annoyed with all the emails about the Nazis in Greece. Are you giving the same about of comments and effort to all the White Supremecists, Neo-Nazis, etc. that we have in the USA? Oh wait, we have freedom of speech here. Don’t they have the right to freedom of speech there?

Granted some are in their government and that is a bit scary, but I would not be surprised if we have several white supremists in our government at the state and federal level.

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Thu, 17 May 2012 00:32:56 +0000

If the activities in breach of the terms of service are actually illegal (such as incitement to violence) then shutting them down is entirely appropriate. If it’s just offensive speech then it’s not so clear. Sorting out these sort of details is ultimately up to the courts.

Matthew, I totally get what you are saying and it is essentially correct, but I think it is not what is really going on here, either on the Petition front or in this conversation. There is confusion on this very thread about these things, some of it I’m afraid willfull.

The reason we are even talking about Nazis is becuase we loath them. We are not interested in subtle differences in modality here. People who walk around with things that look like swastikas making Nazi salutes and making Nazi-esque talk about undesirables are self identifying with the people who threw granny in the oven, and they will do more of that as soon as they get some ovens. Concern about Nazis being treated poorly is sympathizing with them and is either total dickishness or some sort of need to hear one’s own voice.

WordPress damn well better distrust, dislike, and just plain dis Nazis because it is, it turns out, more important to take the humanist road than the skeptics road. A skeptic can’t tell the difference between a Nazi and a Libertarian and a Monk because there are people out there who hate each of those sorts of folk with equal vehemence. There is in fact a skeptical (skeptics?) position that genocides happen and while we may feel badly about the victims, it is a human process just as much as any other human process. I’m sure most skeptics don’t think this but some do. It is not possible to make that mistake from a humanist persepctive.

The Nazis are bad. The idea is to poke them in the eye. The method of the action in this case is appealing to WordPress’s terms of service rules, which is nothing other than a convenience.

This (the bit about the Nazis) should not be a philosophical discussion about free speech or fairness or slippery slopes. It should be a discussion about how to keep the Nazis down.

If necessary, I will agree to the fact that someone making a fairness argument on the behalf of Nazis is a better person than me for that reason. Fine.

I will be over her poking the Nazis in the eye. Have a nice time in the oven. Bring sun screen.