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	Comments on: The Saints Did In Fact Strategize  to Injure Favre (I told you so)	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491979</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491979</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Martin, I totally disagree. It was not an off the cuff remark, he discussed it for some time and provided a convincing argument. American Football as it is played today is not like Rugby, older forms of football, or other sports with respect to a lot of important variables about how the plays work, what the players do, how big (and/or specialized) they are, etc. etc.  I don&#039;t think it was hyperoble.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin, I totally disagree. It was not an off the cuff remark, he discussed it for some time and provided a convincing argument. American Football as it is played today is not like Rugby, older forms of football, or other sports with respect to a lot of important variables about how the plays work, what the players do, how big (and/or specialized) they are, etc. etc.  I don&#8217;t think it was hyperoble.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: elspi		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491978</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[elspi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 03:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491978</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You were right, they were wrong.  There is nothing wrong with being wrong from time to time.  There is something very wrong with being unable to admit when you were wrong.

This inability is the defining feature of the modern republican party.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You were right, they were wrong.  There is nothing wrong with being wrong from time to time.  There is something very wrong with being unable to admit when you were wrong.</p>
<p>This inability is the defining feature of the modern republican party.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Martin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491977</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 03:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491977</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Greg #13:

Yes, helmets are coddling. As is all the armour.

Have you ever played/watched Rugby football (League and/or Union)? Australian football? Both sports are arguably more violent than North American football (play and player contact continues with ball on the ground, restart possession is heavily contested[line outs/scrums - mainly Union]). And yet, you don&#039;t see armour and helmets on those players (from school 15s to international teams), and you definitely don&#039;t see &quot;one death per game&quot;. In 110 years (since the schism between league and union) there have been 71 rugby related deaths...and there are many more (many, many more) Rugby matches per year than football.

One has to ask, why there was not &quot;one death per game&quot; in pre-gladiatoral outfits (1860 - 1910). Methinks your source is indulging in a little hyperbole.

*I have no stats for Australian football.     ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg #13:</p>
<p>Yes, helmets are coddling. As is all the armour.</p>
<p>Have you ever played/watched Rugby football (League and/or Union)? Australian football? Both sports are arguably more violent than North American football (play and player contact continues with ball on the ground, restart possession is heavily contested[line outs/scrums &#8211; mainly Union]). And yet, you don&#8217;t see armour and helmets on those players (from school 15s to international teams), and you definitely don&#8217;t see &#8220;one death per game&#8221;. In 110 years (since the schism between league and union) there have been 71 rugby related deaths&#8230;and there are many more (many, many more) Rugby matches per year than football.</p>
<p>One has to ask, why there was not &#8220;one death per game&#8221; in pre-gladiatoral outfits (1860 &#8211; 1910). Methinks your source is indulging in a little hyperbole.</p>
<p>*I have no stats for Australian football.     </p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel J. Andrews		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491976</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491976</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a radical thought. Just stop feeding into the mania that is sports and athletes. Too much tv, culture, peoples&#039; lives revolves around various big-name sports---not doing the sports, but just watching. It is ridiculous that some &#039;athletes&#039; are being paid gross amounts of money and people who are actually making a real contribution to society (researchers and scientists, for example) are paid relatively little.

There was an episode of Sliders where they landed on an earth where bright people were the superstars, not athletes. Sigh. Yeah, far-fetched sci-fi indeed. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a radical thought. Just stop feeding into the mania that is sports and athletes. Too much tv, culture, peoples&#8217; lives revolves around various big-name sports&#8212;not doing the sports, but just watching. It is ridiculous that some &#8216;athletes&#8217; are being paid gross amounts of money and people who are actually making a real contribution to society (researchers and scientists, for example) are paid relatively little.</p>
<p>There was an episode of Sliders where they landed on an earth where bright people were the superstars, not athletes. Sigh. Yeah, far-fetched sci-fi indeed. </p>
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		<title>
		By: frank -- Decoding SwiftHack		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491975</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frank -- Decoding SwiftHack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491975</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Indeed. Just because wrongdoing is &quot;normal&quot; doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s not wrong anymore.

Coincidentally, &lt;em&gt;DeSmogBlog&lt;/em&gt;&#039;s Jim Hoggan said something similar in the context of the Heartland vs. Gleick brouhaha.

http://desmogblog.com/spinalysis-heartland-s-echo-chamber-shifts-target
http://ijish.livejournal.com/49185.html

-- frank]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed. Just because wrongdoing is &#8220;normal&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s not wrong anymore.</p>
<p>Coincidentally, <em>DeSmogBlog</em>&#8216;s Jim Hoggan said something similar in the context of the Heartland vs. Gleick brouhaha.</p>
<p><a href="http://desmogblog.com/spinalysis-heartland-s-echo-chamber-shifts-target" rel="nofollow ugc">http://desmogblog.com/spinalysis-heartland-s-echo-chamber-shifts-target</a><br />
<a href="http://ijish.livejournal.com/49185.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://ijish.livejournal.com/49185.html</a></p>
<p>&#8212; frank</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491974</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491974</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Martin: You seem to be saying that wearing helmets is coddling.  According to the President of the American Sports Injury Whateverwhatever, who I heard on the radio last year, if an NFL season was played without helmets, there would be an average of one death per game, in his estimation.

Have you seen the movie &quot;rolerball&quot; ... that was not meant to be a suggestion for real life.

Daedalus2u, I agree. Also, i&#039;m going to spend some time with your paper next week after our upcoming political caucuses, which are taking much of my time now. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin: You seem to be saying that wearing helmets is coddling.  According to the President of the American Sports Injury Whateverwhatever, who I heard on the radio last year, if an NFL season was played without helmets, there would be an average of one death per game, in his estimation.</p>
<p>Have you seen the movie &#8220;rolerball&#8221; &#8230; that was not meant to be a suggestion for real life.</p>
<p>Daedalus2u, I agree. Also, i&#8217;m going to spend some time with your paper next week after our upcoming political caucuses, which are taking much of my time now. </p>
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		<title>
		By: daedalus2u		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491973</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daedalus2u]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491973</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree with Greg.  This crosses the line from playing football, a game with rules, to conspiracy to commit assault and battery.

If money changed hands as a consequence of the assault and battery of opposing players, then there is a real crime.

That this was done after crossing state lines and in multiple states makes it a federal case.

Although each locality where games were played could prosecute it too.  They could settle for a plea agreement of just a few million dollar fine.

Individual players injured would also have a legal case against the franchise.

Putting the franchise out of business is a good idea.  Only if the owners can lose their investment will they supervise the franchise correctly.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Greg.  This crosses the line from playing football, a game with rules, to conspiracy to commit assault and battery.</p>
<p>If money changed hands as a consequence of the assault and battery of opposing players, then there is a real crime.</p>
<p>That this was done after crossing state lines and in multiple states makes it a federal case.</p>
<p>Although each locality where games were played could prosecute it too.  They could settle for a plea agreement of just a few million dollar fine.</p>
<p>Individual players injured would also have a legal case against the franchise.</p>
<p>Putting the franchise out of business is a good idea.  Only if the owners can lose their investment will they supervise the franchise correctly.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric Lund		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491972</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Lund]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491972</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[American football, like many other contact sports, is a form of ritual combat. In ritual combat, the forms must be obeyed, and one of those rules is that you do not attack your opponent in a way which is intended to injure him. Yes, injuries will sometimes happen. Yes, some players try to bend that rule, which is why there are penalties for flagrant fouls. Yes, the referees will sometimes not see a flagrant foul, or not notice that a foul is flagrant. But the rules are still in place: if you are caught committing a foul which is intended to injure your opponent, you should expect severe penalties.

This is why a coach offering cash incentives is an affront to the game. That there have been other non-cash incentives on other teams (I will stipulate that this has happened) is irrelevant; it&#039;s just that proving the intent of non-cash incentives is a lot harder.

Had the Saints been pursuing the legitimate strategy of trying to tackle the quarterback before he throws the ball, that would be one thing. But that strategy ought to result in an occasional sack, even when the quarterback is as good as Favre, and the Saints were 0 for 19 on sacking Favre in that game. And unless the point is to injure the quarterback, a sack is a better result for the defense than knocking down the quarterback after he throws the ball (a sack results in a loss of yardage, and it avoids the risk of a completed forward pass).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>American football, like many other contact sports, is a form of ritual combat. In ritual combat, the forms must be obeyed, and one of those rules is that you do not attack your opponent in a way which is intended to injure him. Yes, injuries will sometimes happen. Yes, some players try to bend that rule, which is why there are penalties for flagrant fouls. Yes, the referees will sometimes not see a flagrant foul, or not notice that a foul is flagrant. But the rules are still in place: if you are caught committing a foul which is intended to injure your opponent, you should expect severe penalties.</p>
<p>This is why a coach offering cash incentives is an affront to the game. That there have been other non-cash incentives on other teams (I will stipulate that this has happened) is irrelevant; it&#8217;s just that proving the intent of non-cash incentives is a lot harder.</p>
<p>Had the Saints been pursuing the legitimate strategy of trying to tackle the quarterback before he throws the ball, that would be one thing. But that strategy ought to result in an occasional sack, even when the quarterback is as good as Favre, and the Saints were 0 for 19 on sacking Favre in that game. And unless the point is to injure the quarterback, a sack is a better result for the defense than knocking down the quarterback after he throws the ball (a sack results in a loss of yardage, and it avoids the risk of a completed forward pass).</p>
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		<title>
		By: BigRed		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491971</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BigRed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491971</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the thing problem that I have with your interpretation. According to what you link:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...a bounty system that provided the team&#039;s players payments for hits that injured opponents.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and MPR reacts with

&lt;blockquote&gt;many thought the New Orleans Saints were playing dirty and out to injure people, particularly then-Vikings-QB Brett Favre.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, I see that the bounty system gives players an incentive to injure opponents and this has no place in any game and the Saints deserved to be punished for it (even though the stories keep circulating that lots of teams do that and the Saints just did it more systematically but that alone merits punishment).
But going from this incentive and its clear effects on the field to the claim of a &quot;clearly designed, practiced, and successfully implemented...strategy&quot; seems to be an overreach to me. And the difference between systematic bounties for injuries and training your defense actively in how to inflict injury while avoiding penalties should make for a difference in punishment.
If the Saints won the super bowl because they motivated their players to injure opponents, anyone involved should be heavily fined and suspended. If they won the super bowl because they implemented a complete strategy that enabled their players to injure opponents while avoiding penalties, the super bowl should be voided, none of the coaches should work again in the NFL and this should maybe be treated as a crime.
You argue for the latter but quote sources that allege the former.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing problem that I have with your interpretation. According to what you link:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;a bounty system that provided the team&#8217;s players payments for hits that injured opponents.</p></blockquote>
<p>and MPR reacts with</p>
<blockquote><p>many thought the New Orleans Saints were playing dirty and out to injure people, particularly then-Vikings-QB Brett Favre.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, I see that the bounty system gives players an incentive to injure opponents and this has no place in any game and the Saints deserved to be punished for it (even though the stories keep circulating that lots of teams do that and the Saints just did it more systematically but that alone merits punishment).<br />
But going from this incentive and its clear effects on the field to the claim of a &#8220;clearly designed, practiced, and successfully implemented&#8230;strategy&#8221; seems to be an overreach to me. And the difference between systematic bounties for injuries and training your defense actively in how to inflict injury while avoiding penalties should make for a difference in punishment.<br />
If the Saints won the super bowl because they motivated their players to injure opponents, anyone involved should be heavily fined and suspended. If they won the super bowl because they implemented a complete strategy that enabled their players to injure opponents while avoiding penalties, the super bowl should be voided, none of the coaches should work again in the NFL and this should maybe be treated as a crime.<br />
You argue for the latter but quote sources that allege the former.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Martin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491970</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/03/21/the-saints-did-in-fact-strateg/#comment-491970</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh good grief! Stop whining!

If you&#039;re going to watch/play a &quot;sport&quot; in which physical assaults are an integral part then expect teams to offer incentives to, and to use strategies that, achieve maximum (game/season/career long?) results from those assaults. Hell, you might as well condemn boxers and their trainers for their attempts to concuss the other boxer.

The players of North American rules football are coddled enough (armoured for protection; rests after every 20 second play; sitting on a bench for half the game &amp;c.). Are you proposing another layer of protection for the poor quarterbacks? Perhaps a &quot;wah-wah-wah&quot; 5yd penalty signaled by the head zebra rubbing his eyes? No problem, that will only add another 5 minutes to an already interminably boring game - enough time for 2 or 3 more paid adverts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh good grief! Stop whining!</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to watch/play a &#8220;sport&#8221; in which physical assaults are an integral part then expect teams to offer incentives to, and to use strategies that, achieve maximum (game/season/career long?) results from those assaults. Hell, you might as well condemn boxers and their trainers for their attempts to concuss the other boxer.</p>
<p>The players of North American rules football are coddled enough (armoured for protection; rests after every 20 second play; sitting on a bench for half the game &#038;c.). Are you proposing another layer of protection for the poor quarterbacks? Perhaps a &#8220;wah-wah-wah&#8221; 5yd penalty signaled by the head zebra rubbing his eyes? No problem, that will only add another 5 minutes to an already interminably boring game &#8211; enough time for 2 or 3 more paid adverts.</p>
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