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	Comments on: HeartlandGate: Anti-Science Institute&#039;s Insider Reveals Secrets	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/</link>
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		<title>
		By: phillydoug		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491058</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[phillydoug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491058</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[James,

&quot;The people who said the earth was not flat were, basically, burned at the stake.&quot;

James, your grasp of science appears to be matched by your grasp of history. Which is to say you have no grasp of either.

Ok, it was &#039;witches&#039; (women), Muslims, Jews, and anyone the Catholic Church, and some other Chistian denominations, didn&#039;t feel keen on, that were burned at the stake. You might have noticed Greg&#039;s post on this recently. Heretics tortured, imprisoned, and murdered in hideous ways-- by the high-minded, anti-science god-fearin&#039; men in robes who thought they were the enforcers of divine truth-- these deaths likely numbered in the millions.

So, no it wasn&#039;t the &#039;flat-earthers&#039; that were burned at the stake; the flat-earthers who were hold outs on the whole notion that the earth was not a spheroid body, as late as the 1800&#039;s. (And apparently 2014, if we count you James):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

&quot;English writer Samuel Rowbotham (1816–1885), writing under the pseudonym &quot;Parallax,&quot; produced a pamphlet called Zetetic Astronomy in 1849 arguing for a flat Earth and published results of many experiments that tested the curvatures of water over a long drainage ditch, followed by another called &#039;The inconsistency of Modern Astronomy and its Opposition to the Scripture.&#039; One of his supporters, John Hampden, lost a bet to Alfred Russel Wallace in the famous Bedford Level Experiment, which attempted to prove it. In 1877 Hampden produced a book called &quot;A New Manual of Biblical Cosmography&quot;.

See James, the earth is not, um, actually flat.  So if you&#039;re saying it was unfair of those meanie sciency types to tell the flat-earthers that they were wrong, and so it&#039;s also wrong for those meanie sciency types to tell anthropogenic climate change denialists, evolution denialists, &#039;earth is more than 6000 years old&#039; denialists, that they are all simply wrong, then you are, in technical terms, addled in the brain-pan.

And scientists have not been in the habit of persecuting people, even when they hold ridiculously false beliefs; no James, that&#039;s been the ultra-religious maniacs over countless centuries, when their fairy tales and delusions run smack up against basic reality, that have felt the need, and assumed  the right, to murder people for simply asking questions.  Scientists settle things with data and reasoned argument. Religious fanatics, of all stripes, scream, threaten, discriminate, enslave, demean and murder those that disagree. So it has been for millennia, so it is today.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>&#8220;The people who said the earth was not flat were, basically, burned at the stake.&#8221;</p>
<p>James, your grasp of science appears to be matched by your grasp of history. Which is to say you have no grasp of either.</p>
<p>Ok, it was &#8216;witches&#8217; (women), Muslims, Jews, and anyone the Catholic Church, and some other Chistian denominations, didn&#8217;t feel keen on, that were burned at the stake. You might have noticed Greg&#8217;s post on this recently. Heretics tortured, imprisoned, and murdered in hideous ways&#8211; by the high-minded, anti-science god-fearin&#8217; men in robes who thought they were the enforcers of divine truth&#8211; these deaths likely numbered in the millions.</p>
<p>So, no it wasn&#8217;t the &#8216;flat-earthers&#8217; that were burned at the stake; the flat-earthers who were hold outs on the whole notion that the earth was not a spheroid body, as late as the 1800&#8217;s. (And apparently 2014, if we count you James):</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth</a></p>
<p>&#8220;English writer Samuel Rowbotham (1816–1885), writing under the pseudonym &#8220;Parallax,&#8221; produced a pamphlet called Zetetic Astronomy in 1849 arguing for a flat Earth and published results of many experiments that tested the curvatures of water over a long drainage ditch, followed by another called &#8216;The inconsistency of Modern Astronomy and its Opposition to the Scripture.&#8217; One of his supporters, John Hampden, lost a bet to Alfred Russel Wallace in the famous Bedford Level Experiment, which attempted to prove it. In 1877 Hampden produced a book called &#8220;A New Manual of Biblical Cosmography&#8221;.</p>
<p>See James, the earth is not, um, actually flat.  So if you&#8217;re saying it was unfair of those meanie sciency types to tell the flat-earthers that they were wrong, and so it&#8217;s also wrong for those meanie sciency types to tell anthropogenic climate change denialists, evolution denialists, &#8216;earth is more than 6000 years old&#8217; denialists, that they are all simply wrong, then you are, in technical terms, addled in the brain-pan.</p>
<p>And scientists have not been in the habit of persecuting people, even when they hold ridiculously false beliefs; no James, that&#8217;s been the ultra-religious maniacs over countless centuries, when their fairy tales and delusions run smack up against basic reality, that have felt the need, and assumed  the right, to murder people for simply asking questions.  Scientists settle things with data and reasoned argument. Religious fanatics, of all stripes, scream, threaten, discriminate, enslave, demean and murder those that disagree. So it has been for millennia, so it is today.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491057</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 01:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491057</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491056&quot;&gt;James&lt;/a&gt;.

James, you are an absurd little man.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491056">James</a>.</p>
<p>James, you are an absurd little man.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491056</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2014 23:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491056</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The people who said the earth was not flat were, basically, burned at the stake.  Funny how the same thing is happening today to anyone who questions the validity of the science behind man-made global warming/climate change theory.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people who said the earth was not flat were, basically, burned at the stake.  Funny how the same thing is happening today to anyone who questions the validity of the science behind man-made global warming/climate change theory.</p>
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		<title>
		By: desotojm@vzw.blackberry.net		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491055</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[desotojm@vzw.blackberry.net]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2012 03:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491055</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Exactly who are you?  A wacko environmentalist in need of attention and a purpose in life or just some sorry as fag?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly who are you?  A wacko environmentalist in need of attention and a purpose in life or just some sorry as fag?<br />
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry</p>
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		<title>
		By: abb3w		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491054</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[abb3w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491054</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@34, &lt;b&gt;Dave Burton:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;3. The PDF is time-stamped with a Pacific Standard Time timestamp, even though Heartland is in Chicago, and none of its directors are in the Pacific Time Zone, nor even in a State adjacent to the Pacific Time Zone.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Additional detail (in later posts) now out now points to an explanation: that was the first document, which Gleick (based in Oakland, California) says he received via snail mail.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@34, <b>Dave Burton:</b> </p>
<blockquote><p>3. The PDF is time-stamped with a Pacific Standard Time timestamp, even though Heartland is in Chicago, and none of its directors are in the Pacific Time Zone, nor even in a State adjacent to the Pacific Time Zone.</p></blockquote>
<p>Additional detail (in later posts) now out now points to an explanation: that was the first document, which Gleick (based in Oakland, California) says he received via snail mail.</p>
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		By: Lotharsson		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491053</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lotharsson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 04:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491053</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The strategy document was a fraud...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You might want to work on your reading comprehension. The link you provided does not assert that, let alone provide any solid evidence.

&lt;blockquote&gt;A massive fail for the always credulous CAGW faithful.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And this changes the scientific evidence...&lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; exactly?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The strategy document was a fraud&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>You might want to work on your reading comprehension. The link you provided does not assert that, let alone provide any solid evidence.</p>
<blockquote><p>A massive fail for the always credulous CAGW faithful.</p></blockquote>
<p>And this changes the scientific evidence&#8230;<em>how</em> exactly?</p>
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		By: mikel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491052</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mikel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 03:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491052</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[1. There is nothing in that story that supports the notion that the strategy document is a fake. And its pretty clear now that all the other documents are genuine. &lt;br&gt;
2. Its not clear that any laws were broken.&lt;/br&gt;&lt;br&gt;
3. Gleick, unlike the CRU email thief has come forward and taken responsibility and apologized for his actions. Advantage AGW consensus.&lt;/br&gt; &lt;br&gt;
4. Revkin&#039;s crocodile tears regarding: &lt;blockquote&gt;The broader tragedy is that his decision to go to such extremes in his fight with Heartland has greatly set back any prospects of the country having the â??rational public debateâ? that he wrote â?? correctly â?? is so desperately needed.&lt;/blockquote&gt; are revolting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. There is nothing in that story that supports the notion that the strategy document is a fake. And its pretty clear now that all the other documents are genuine. <br />
2. Its not clear that any laws were broken.<br />
3. Gleick, unlike the CRU email thief has come forward and taken responsibility and apologized for his actions. Advantage AGW consensus. <br />
4. Revkin&#8217;s crocodile tears regarding: </p>
<blockquote><p>The broader tragedy is that his decision to go to such extremes in his fight with Heartland has greatly set back any prospects of the country having the â??rational public debateâ? that he wrote â?? correctly â?? is so desperately needed.</p></blockquote>
<p> are revolting.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491051</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 03:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491051</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Where do you get &quot;the strategy document is a fraud&quot; from that?

What peter did, actually, would get him a Pulitzer prize if he was a journalist. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where do you get &#8220;the strategy document is a fraud&#8221; from that?</p>
<p>What peter did, actually, would get him a Pulitzer prize if he was a journalist. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Mangan		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491050</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Mangan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 03:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491050</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Of course, in the end, you knew it was just another Alarmist failure...

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/peter-gleick-admits-to-deception-in-obtaining-heartland-climate-files/

The strategy document was a fraud and Peter Gleick broke the law to steal the rest of the documents from Heartland.  A massive fail for the always credulous CAGW faithful. As usual.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, in the end, you knew it was just another Alarmist failure&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/peter-gleick-admits-to-deception-in-obtaining-heartland-climate-files/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/peter-gleick-admits-to-deception-in-obtaining-heartland-climate-files/</a></p>
<p>The strategy document was a fraud and Peter Gleick broke the law to steal the rest of the documents from Heartland.  A massive fail for the always credulous CAGW faithful. As usual.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Winter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491049</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/02/14/heartlandgate-anti-science-ins/#comment-491049</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Regarding the blog WattsUpWithThat, JSmith wrote: &lt;i&gt;&quot;First attempt was censored. Second attempt disappeared. What&#039;s up with that indeed !&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Come on, you know Anthony never censors or deletes polite comments from his blog. All his faithful followers tell us so!

/sarcasm]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the blog WattsUpWithThat, JSmith wrote: <i>&#8220;First attempt was censored. Second attempt disappeared. What&#8217;s up with that indeed !&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Come on, you know Anthony never censors or deletes polite comments from his blog. All his faithful followers tell us so!</p>
<p>/sarcasm</p>
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