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	Comments on: Transgender child throws scouts into tail spin, ruins everyting	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:03:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Anat		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18893</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18893</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To LC: If a child of yours were at some point to conclude that hir true gender is other than the one others describe hir as being will you be able to accept said child on hir own terms?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To LC: If a child of yours were at some point to conclude that hir true gender is other than the one others describe hir as being will you be able to accept said child on hir own terms?</p>
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		<title>
		By: nataliebaldwin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18892</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nataliebaldwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18892</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@LC

Love would mean not condemning someone&#039;s identity as &quot;wrong&quot; when it does no harm whatsoever. Not inflicting harm by teaching the clearly erroneous view that sex and gender are sorted into two neat, discrete sets. Loving UNCONDITIONALLY, and continuing to offer that love, whomever your child should turn out to be... straight, gay, bi, cis, trans, boy, girl, whatever. To love them enough to not harm their ability to love &lt;em&gt;themselves&lt;/em&gt; simply to maintain an outdated, clearly erroneous view that sex and gender are sorted into two neat, discrete sets.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@LC</p>
<p>Love would mean not condemning someone&#8217;s identity as &#8220;wrong&#8221; when it does no harm whatsoever. Not inflicting harm by teaching the clearly erroneous view that sex and gender are sorted into two neat, discrete sets. Loving UNCONDITIONALLY, and continuing to offer that love, whomever your child should turn out to be&#8230; straight, gay, bi, cis, trans, boy, girl, whatever. To love them enough to not harm their ability to love <em>themselves</em> simply to maintain an outdated, clearly erroneous view that sex and gender are sorted into two neat, discrete sets.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Draken		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18891</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Draken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18891</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@LC it has nothing to do with what &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; believe, it has to do with the kid. What if he sincerely feels like a girl who should be playing with the other girls rather than the boys? Would you force your son to play, or avoid playing with either sex when just playing in the street? If not, why do so when he joins the scouts?

Speaking of which, why are there still segregated scout troops? Last time I checked the Victorian age had been over for about a century.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@LC it has nothing to do with what <i>you</i> believe, it has to do with the kid. What if he sincerely feels like a girl who should be playing with the other girls rather than the boys? Would you force your son to play, or avoid playing with either sex when just playing in the street? If not, why do so when he joins the scouts?</p>
<p>Speaking of which, why are there still segregated scout troops? Last time I checked the Victorian age had been over for about a century.</p>
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		<title>
		By: LC		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18890</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 07:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18890</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ok... we want to talk about not being prejudice/biased/over religious and all but If you believe that you were born in the wrong body you have every right to do so BUT I also have every right to believe and teach my child that we were made male and female and to raise and allow her to be in organizations that believe the same.  We can respect each others rights to their beliefs but we do not have to accept them as our truths or beliefs.  I would have removed my child from this troop as well.  I am a Christian. I do not judge nor try to condemn as I am in no place to do so I am human.  There is but one judge.  But I do raise my child to know right and wrong and to love, but love does not mean to be tolerant of what you believe to be wrong.  As a person with these beliefs why do I have to have my beliefs overridden by yours? ijs]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok&#8230; we want to talk about not being prejudice/biased/over religious and all but If you believe that you were born in the wrong body you have every right to do so BUT I also have every right to believe and teach my child that we were made male and female and to raise and allow her to be in organizations that believe the same.  We can respect each others rights to their beliefs but we do not have to accept them as our truths or beliefs.  I would have removed my child from this troop as well.  I am a Christian. I do not judge nor try to condemn as I am in no place to do so I am human.  There is but one judge.  But I do raise my child to know right and wrong and to love, but love does not mean to be tolerant of what you believe to be wrong.  As a person with these beliefs why do I have to have my beliefs overridden by yours? ijs</p>
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		<title>
		By: nataliebaldwin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18889</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nataliebaldwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 06:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18889</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yep, WMDKitty, that&#039;s about right. At least from my perspective and experience. Parts, role, whatever. Not important. But the idea of what concept of self (man, woman, genderqueer, androgyne, etc.) feels right and fits and makes sense. For me it was woman. And I hated the parts I had... they freaked me out and felt wrong, disgusting and alien. So I changed the parts, and now I&#039;m happy and feel whole and like my body is my own, rather than some alien, creepy thing I&#039;m attached to. My affinity for skirts, dresses, make-up, poetry and My Little Pony (or basketball, science, pen &#038; paper RPGs, comics and guns), is pretty much a non-issue. Being female makes being femme easier, but that had nothing to do with my decision to transition, my feelings about my body or my sense of self.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, WMDKitty, that&#8217;s about right. At least from my perspective and experience. Parts, role, whatever. Not important. But the idea of what concept of self (man, woman, genderqueer, androgyne, etc.) feels right and fits and makes sense. For me it was woman. And I hated the parts I had&#8230; they freaked me out and felt wrong, disgusting and alien. So I changed the parts, and now I&#8217;m happy and feel whole and like my body is my own, rather than some alien, creepy thing I&#8217;m attached to. My affinity for skirts, dresses, make-up, poetry and My Little Pony (or basketball, science, pen &amp; paper RPGs, comics and guns), is pretty much a non-issue. Being female makes being femme easier, but that had nothing to do with my decision to transition, my feelings about my body or my sense of self.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18888</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 05:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18888</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would like to draw everyone&#039;s attention to this post I wrote last July which touches on a lot of issues brought up in the present discussion:  

&lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/how_do_you_get_sexual_orientat.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;How Do You Get Sexual Orientation and Gender in Humans?&lt;/a&gt;

There are very interesting comments on the post as well.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to draw everyone&#8217;s attention to this post I wrote last July which touches on a lot of issues brought up in the present discussion:  </p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/how_do_you_get_sexual_orientat.php" rel="nofollow">How Do You Get Sexual Orientation and Gender in Humans?</a></p>
<p>There are very interesting comments on the post as well.</p>
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		<title>
		By: WMDKitty		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18887</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WMDKitty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18887</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m female. Not because I have the &quot;right&quot; parts, but because I have an innate feeling of &lt;i&gt;being&lt;/i&gt; female.

I&#039;m assuming that a MTF transsexual has that same innate feeling of &lt;i&gt;being&lt;/i&gt; female, regardless of the external bits. (Please do correct me if I&#039;ve got this wrong!)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m female. Not because I have the &#8220;right&#8221; parts, but because I have an innate feeling of <i>being</i> female.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming that a MTF transsexual has that same innate feeling of <i>being</i> female, regardless of the external bits. (Please do correct me if I&#8217;ve got this wrong!)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Uncle Glenny		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18886</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Uncle Glenny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18886</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I was born in the 1950s, when there was no &quot;Heather has two Mommies&quot;, and the first exposure I had to the concept of being gay was television coverage of the Stonewall riotsI when I was, I suppose, about 11 or 12 (and it wasn&#039;t exactly explained to me then but I&#039;d catch on shortly).  But in retrospect there were differences in the way I played with my toys and friends, and the former were things like toy soldiers, trucks, electric trains, and the like. From back to maybe age 5, maybe less.

In fourth grade (I would have been 10) I went to a K-12 private school and the phys ed class had to change in the locker room, sometimes crossing paths with the older boys who played on the athletic teams.  (And one of them may have been - mirabile dictu! - Christopher Reeve, although I don&#039;t specificcally remember him.)  There was definitely sexual attraction forming by then.

I have no trouble believing that orientation and identity begin developing quite early.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was born in the 1950s, when there was no &#8220;Heather has two Mommies&#8221;, and the first exposure I had to the concept of being gay was television coverage of the Stonewall riotsI when I was, I suppose, about 11 or 12 (and it wasn&#8217;t exactly explained to me then but I&#8217;d catch on shortly).  But in retrospect there were differences in the way I played with my toys and friends, and the former were things like toy soldiers, trucks, electric trains, and the like. From back to maybe age 5, maybe less.</p>
<p>In fourth grade (I would have been 10) I went to a K-12 private school and the phys ed class had to change in the locker room, sometimes crossing paths with the older boys who played on the athletic teams.  (And one of them may have been &#8211; mirabile dictu! &#8211; Christopher Reeve, although I don&#8217;t specificcally remember him.)  There was definitely sexual attraction forming by then.</p>
<p>I have no trouble believing that orientation and identity begin developing quite early.</p>
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		<title>
		By: nataliebaldwin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18885</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nataliebaldwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18885</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Anat

Yes, you&#039;re absolutely right. There are definitely lots of people who have non-binary gender identities. I was just trying to keep the discussion from moving in the direction of misinterpreting transgenderism as being about how well one does or does not fit into stereotypical gender &lt;em&gt;roles&lt;/em&gt;, when such socially mandated things are quite beside the point of how an individual relates to their physiological sex. That confusion leads to misunderstandings like what were just exemplified in Paladin&#039;s post: &quot;wait... why does playing with dolls make someone a girl?&quot; (answer: it doesn&#039;t. Having an internal sense of self consistent with female-ness makes someone a girl, regardless of their assigned sex or relative &quot;femininity&quot;). So I tend to jump pretty quick whenever I see a conversation on trans issues straying in the direction of that tenacious misunderstanding. But yeah, I don&#039;t in the slightest bit dismiss the existence of genderqueer, androgyne and non-binary identities and experiences, and think they&#039;re just as valid as anything else. But accepting them won&#039;t necessarily automatically lead to accepting binary trans identities, like with Bobby Montoya. And in certain corners of the gender movement, such identities are sometimes privileged &lt;em&gt;above&lt;/em&gt; binary trans identities... with genderqueer folk being seen as radical and forward-thinking and sexy while binary trans women are often regarded as stuffy, boring, conservative, decidedly unsexy agents of patriarchy and binary outdated roles. Which sucks, because we&#039;re all aiming for the exact same thing: being ourselves, whatever our selves may be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anat</p>
<p>Yes, you&#8217;re absolutely right. There are definitely lots of people who have non-binary gender identities. I was just trying to keep the discussion from moving in the direction of misinterpreting transgenderism as being about how well one does or does not fit into stereotypical gender <em>roles</em>, when such socially mandated things are quite beside the point of how an individual relates to their physiological sex. That confusion leads to misunderstandings like what were just exemplified in Paladin&#8217;s post: &#8220;wait&#8230; why does playing with dolls make someone a girl?&#8221; (answer: it doesn&#8217;t. Having an internal sense of self consistent with female-ness makes someone a girl, regardless of their assigned sex or relative &#8220;femininity&#8221;). So I tend to jump pretty quick whenever I see a conversation on trans issues straying in the direction of that tenacious misunderstanding. But yeah, I don&#8217;t in the slightest bit dismiss the existence of genderqueer, androgyne and non-binary identities and experiences, and think they&#8217;re just as valid as anything else. But accepting them won&#8217;t necessarily automatically lead to accepting binary trans identities, like with Bobby Montoya. And in certain corners of the gender movement, such identities are sometimes privileged <em>above</em> binary trans identities&#8230; with genderqueer folk being seen as radical and forward-thinking and sexy while binary trans women are often regarded as stuffy, boring, conservative, decidedly unsexy agents of patriarchy and binary outdated roles. Which sucks, because we&#8217;re all aiming for the exact same thing: being ourselves, whatever our selves may be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anat		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/12/21/transgender-child-throws-scouts-into-tail-spin-ruins-everyting/#comment-18884</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1747#comment-18884</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Paladin, while a 7-year-old may not know all things society connects with gender I doubt anyone who attended preschool doesn&#039;t realize that some kids are considered &#039;boys&#039; and some kids are considered &#039;girls&#039; and to which group people expect hir to conform. They may occasionally misidentify a specific person&#039;s gender, but they have a general idea.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paladin, while a 7-year-old may not know all things society connects with gender I doubt anyone who attended preschool doesn&#8217;t realize that some kids are considered &#8216;boys&#8217; and some kids are considered &#8216;girls&#8217; and to which group people expect hir to conform. They may occasionally misidentify a specific person&#8217;s gender, but they have a general idea.</p>
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