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	<title>
	Comments on: An Important Victory for Climate Science	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Sundance		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509399</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sundance]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 05:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509399</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Sascha, you need to do a reality check. See you on the south pole where you will be happily farming!&quot;

This was funnny. It&#039;s good to see you have a sense of humor.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sascha, you need to do a reality check. See you on the south pole where you will be happily farming!&#8221;</p>
<p>This was funnny. It&#8217;s good to see you have a sense of humor.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel J. Andrews		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509398</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509398</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Edit to add: We&#039;re not always so cut-throat. Most times (least in my experience) someone presents a hypothesis, we discuss it, bounce it around, realize it is interesting, but we&#039;re not going to give up what we know works just for an interesting idea. The other person then starts doing work to gain evidence, we remain skeptical but open, s/he gives us evidence, and &quot;hey, that looks very interesting...let me run a few experiments/do more research...not sure you&#039;re right, but let&#039;s see where this goes...&quot;
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edit to add: We&#8217;re not always so cut-throat. Most times (least in my experience) someone presents a hypothesis, we discuss it, bounce it around, realize it is interesting, but we&#8217;re not going to give up what we know works just for an interesting idea. The other person then starts doing work to gain evidence, we remain skeptical but open, s/he gives us evidence, and &#8220;hey, that looks very interesting&#8230;let me run a few experiments/do more research&#8230;not sure you&#8217;re right, but let&#8217;s see where this goes&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel J. Andrews		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509397</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel J. Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509397</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The emails confirm that established scientists, while upholding a picture of modest saints that are judged by an objective peer review process, are often arrogant people who manipulate the publishing process etc. wherever they can in order to silence criticism. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Several investigations have found there is nothing to answer for. What have you found--aside from strawmen--that several independent investigations missed? Both of the papers mentioned in emails are in the IPCC literature and were not excluded/suppressed. If you&#039;re thinking of editor resignations, find out from the people who resigned why they resigned (they have open letters). Again, nothing to answer for.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Or did you mean the environment with &quot;at stake&quot;? In that case, I cannot know, because I am no expert on climate. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
We don&#039;t know for sure so let&#039;s do nothing then? Or is it We don&#039;t know for sure so let&#039;s accuse climate scientists of arrogance, silencing critics and manipulating peer review? 

Being arrogant, btw, doesn&#039;t necessarily mean you&#039;re wrong. All you have to do is see what the pseudoskeptics offer to realize that they can&#039;t possibly be right. So many contradictory claims often made by the same people. So many claims based on math that a high school stat student could debunk. So many cherry-picked quotes taken out of context. 

But if you&#039;re looking for arrogance, how about the absolute surety that pseudoskeptics have that they&#039;re right and that they know more than the experts and scientific academies around the world despite their lack of expertise or credentials (often not even having a science background). 

As for your QM ideas, keep doing what other scientists do when they&#039;re doubted by their peers. Do more experiments, find more evidence, win them over by sheer evidence a la Marguilis (endosymbiotic hypothesis), McClintock (jumping genes), and Marshall and Warren (H. pylori and ulcers) to name a few. 

Sincere good wishes with that because many of us (scientists) love it when the lone voice is shown to be right, even if we&#039;re shown to be wrong. Yeah, it can grate depending on how much effort you&#039;ve put into your ideas and depending on how big an a**hole the person has been, but if we can&#039;t disprove it (and we&#039;d really like to at times because that person has been such a pompous arrogant prick), we&#039;ll incorporate it and build on it. If we can&#039;t overturn it, then our next revenge strategy is to take it beyond what the discoverer does and maybe wrestle some recognition away from that s.o.b. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The emails confirm that established scientists, while upholding a picture of modest saints that are judged by an objective peer review process, are often arrogant people who manipulate the publishing process etc. wherever they can in order to silence criticism. </p></blockquote>
<p>Several investigations have found there is nothing to answer for. What have you found&#8211;aside from strawmen&#8211;that several independent investigations missed? Both of the papers mentioned in emails are in the IPCC literature and were not excluded/suppressed. If you&#8217;re thinking of editor resignations, find out from the people who resigned why they resigned (they have open letters). Again, nothing to answer for.</p>
<blockquote><p>Or did you mean the environment with &#8220;at stake&#8221;? In that case, I cannot know, because I am no expert on climate. </p></blockquote>
<p>We don&#8217;t know for sure so let&#8217;s do nothing then? Or is it We don&#8217;t know for sure so let&#8217;s accuse climate scientists of arrogance, silencing critics and manipulating peer review? </p>
<p>Being arrogant, btw, doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean you&#8217;re wrong. All you have to do is see what the pseudoskeptics offer to realize that they can&#8217;t possibly be right. So many contradictory claims often made by the same people. So many claims based on math that a high school stat student could debunk. So many cherry-picked quotes taken out of context. </p>
<p>But if you&#8217;re looking for arrogance, how about the absolute surety that pseudoskeptics have that they&#8217;re right and that they know more than the experts and scientific academies around the world despite their lack of expertise or credentials (often not even having a science background). </p>
<p>As for your QM ideas, keep doing what other scientists do when they&#8217;re doubted by their peers. Do more experiments, find more evidence, win them over by sheer evidence a la Marguilis (endosymbiotic hypothesis), McClintock (jumping genes), and Marshall and Warren (H. pylori and ulcers) to name a few. </p>
<p>Sincere good wishes with that because many of us (scientists) love it when the lone voice is shown to be right, even if we&#8217;re shown to be wrong. Yeah, it can grate depending on how much effort you&#8217;ve put into your ideas and depending on how big an a**hole the person has been, but if we can&#8217;t disprove it (and we&#8217;d really like to at times because that person has been such a pompous arrogant prick), we&#8217;ll incorporate it and build on it. If we can&#8217;t overturn it, then our next revenge strategy is to take it beyond what the discoverer does and maybe wrestle some recognition away from that s.o.b. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509396</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sascha, you need to do a reality check. See you on the south pole where you will be happily farming!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sascha, you need to do a reality check. See you on the south pole where you will be happily farming!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sascha Vongehr		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509395</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sascha Vongehr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 05:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509395</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You asked what they did wrong, I answered that the mails help to show that they are the typical &#039;big shots in the field&#039; type that use their influence into the peer review process to silence criticism. You may not see it that way, but that does not matter, because the public and people like me increasingly do perceive it that way, so reform is looooong overdue.

What is at stake? Unbiased peer review is *the* ingredient to unbiased science. If it is obviously corrupted as it is in today&#039;s publish-or-perish culture, which turned science into a popularity contest, there is no reason to trust established scientific &quot;consensus&quot; anymore than other established belief systems.

Or did you mean the environment with &quot;at stake&quot;? In that case, I cannot know, because I am no expert on climate. As a physicist, I know temperatures are rising with CO2, but whether this just means we will grow food on the south pole, that I would need a trustworthy expert consensus on. I am an expert on QM/gravity and nanotechnology. In these two very different fields, I know well that peer review silences criticism: emergent gravity has been suppressed for 50 years, my criticisms of some nanotech papers are unpublishable, ... . That is two out of two fields I know well. Thus, if I take my expertise into account, I should conclude that trustworthy expert consensus about what is at stake is unavailable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You asked what they did wrong, I answered that the mails help to show that they are the typical &#8216;big shots in the field&#8217; type that use their influence into the peer review process to silence criticism. You may not see it that way, but that does not matter, because the public and people like me increasingly do perceive it that way, so reform is looooong overdue.</p>
<p>What is at stake? Unbiased peer review is *the* ingredient to unbiased science. If it is obviously corrupted as it is in today&#8217;s publish-or-perish culture, which turned science into a popularity contest, there is no reason to trust established scientific &#8220;consensus&#8221; anymore than other established belief systems.</p>
<p>Or did you mean the environment with &#8220;at stake&#8221;? In that case, I cannot know, because I am no expert on climate. As a physicist, I know temperatures are rising with CO2, but whether this just means we will grow food on the south pole, that I would need a trustworthy expert consensus on. I am an expert on QM/gravity and nanotechnology. In these two very different fields, I know well that peer review silences criticism: emergent gravity has been suppressed for 50 years, my criticisms of some nanotech papers are unpublishable, &#8230; . That is two out of two fields I know well. Thus, if I take my expertise into account, I should conclude that trustworthy expert consensus about what is at stake is unavailable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509394</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2011 16:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509394</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And, you are not answering the question ... why?  Do you you know what is at stake here? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, you are not answering the question &#8230; why?  Do you you know what is at stake here? </p>
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		<title>
		By: Sascha Vongehr		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sascha Vongehr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2011 08:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Greg:
You ask â??are you suggesting that there is something &quot;to&quot; Climategate? That those scientists did something wrong? I&#039;m not clear what you are annoyed at.â?
The emails confirm that established scientists, while upholding a picture of modest saints that are judged by an objective peer review process, are often arrogant people who manipulate the publishing process etc. wherever they can in order to silence criticism. I personally have only ever been able to put mediocre work into higher impact journals while all my good work is consistently rejected because I dare to criticize established people (e.g. in nanotechnology). The public does not understand fine points, but people easily pick up on arrogance, and it is arrogance of power much more than (of course also necessary) power that fosters resistance. Your â??victory danceâ? above leaves a bad aftertaste, too â?? no matter whether you do not see that or find it justified â?? it really does. Your great articles for example disagreeing with S. Pinker prove you can do much better.
Science understanding in systems under democratic doctrines is a deep issue that I (related to climate for example here:
http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/refusal_neutrino_results_supports_global_warming_denial_predicted-83583
) and others try to tackle in long articles and they are still misread as â??anti-scienceâ?, so I wonâ??t in a comment (gosh, even J. Lehrer on the â??decline effectâ? was commented on as if it is supporting climate denial - there is no softer way to be &quot;critical&quot; than Lehrer). I say only so much here: Established science (scientists, science media, popular science blogs, â?¦) callously refusing any and all responsibility for the decline of the public trust in science is by now one of the main drivers of the public being confirmed in that decision. There is so much bias and wrong argumentations being tossed around in established science that I have stopped entirely referring to scientific â??consensusâ?, because doing so soils my scientific arguments. If this discussion and reform of publish-or-perish and all that is not taken seriously, 80% will go to 90% and further, and this will be justified.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Greg:<br />
You ask â??are you suggesting that there is something &#8220;to&#8221; Climategate? That those scientists did something wrong? I&#8217;m not clear what you are annoyed at.â?<br />
The emails confirm that established scientists, while upholding a picture of modest saints that are judged by an objective peer review process, are often arrogant people who manipulate the publishing process etc. wherever they can in order to silence criticism. I personally have only ever been able to put mediocre work into higher impact journals while all my good work is consistently rejected because I dare to criticize established people (e.g. in nanotechnology). The public does not understand fine points, but people easily pick up on arrogance, and it is arrogance of power much more than (of course also necessary) power that fosters resistance. Your â??victory danceâ? above leaves a bad aftertaste, too â?? no matter whether you do not see that or find it justified â?? it really does. Your great articles for example disagreeing with S. Pinker prove you can do much better.<br />
Science understanding in systems under democratic doctrines is a deep issue that I (related to climate for example here:<br />
<a href="http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/refusal_neutrino_results_supports_global_warming_denial_predicted-83583" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/refusal_neutrino_results_supports_global_warming_denial_predicted-83583</a><br />
) and others try to tackle in long articles and they are still misread as â??anti-scienceâ?, so I wonâ??t in a comment (gosh, even J. Lehrer on the â??decline effectâ? was commented on as if it is supporting climate denial &#8211; there is no softer way to be &#8220;critical&#8221; than Lehrer). I say only so much here: Established science (scientists, science media, popular science blogs, â?¦) callously refusing any and all responsibility for the decline of the public trust in science is by now one of the main drivers of the public being confirmed in that decision. There is so much bias and wrong argumentations being tossed around in established science that I have stopped entirely referring to scientific â??consensusâ?, because doing so soils my scientific arguments. If this discussion and reform of publish-or-perish and all that is not taken seriously, 80% will go to 90% and further, and this will be justified.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sascha Vongehr		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509392</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sascha Vongehr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2011 06:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509392</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Stephanie Z
The first part of my remark was concerning the Mann-Galileo equivalence, which is looney. You need to twist history (well, or the present) to argue that comparison.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Stephanie Z<br />
The first part of my remark was concerning the Mann-Galileo equivalence, which is looney. You need to twist history (well, or the present) to argue that comparison.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kelly, what do you mean by &quot;weather manipulation&quot; ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kelly, what do you mean by &#8220;weather manipulation&#8221; </p>
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		<title>
		By: Kelly davis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509390</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kelly davis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/11/02/an-important-victory-for-clima/#comment-509390</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s weather manipulation as well. To say people shouldn&#039;t be allowed to read the emails pertaining to the &quot;science&quot; says it all. If you are funded to provide certain results then you will find the results required to continue being funded. These people are paid liars ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s weather manipulation as well. To say people shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to read the emails pertaining to the &#8220;science&#8221; says it all. If you are funded to provide certain results then you will find the results required to continue being funded. These people are paid liars </p>
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