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	Comments on: A Rape in Progress	</title>
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		<title>
		By: The Ys		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17169</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Ys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17169</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I call bullshit.

I can understand being too terrified to intervene. I would not attempt to justify my fear by stating: &quot;Oh, well, that&#039;s just what they do here.&quot;

This is not Star Trek. There is no Prime Directive. 

There is nothing written anywhere that states we have to allow harm to come to others because of where those people live. If there was, you wouldn&#039;t see all the campaigns that attempt to stop people from being stoned to death. You wouldn&#039;t see people stepping in to try and put an end to the brutality happening in Somalia.

There are no cultural &quot;consequences&quot; to preventing a rape, except that you&#039;re helping a girl/woman (generally) NOT become an outcast. If anything, you&#039;re performing a cultural service by ensuring her safety. In most of those societies, the stigma on rape victims far exceeds what we see in the U.S., and by preventing the rape, you&#039;re making sure the girl/woman still has a future in her village.

Things like this infuriate me. People need to stop making excuses for passively standing by and allowing horrible things to happen to people who don&#039;t deserve them. Think of those two gang rapes that happened outside of high school dances. Boys were standing around LAUGHING at the girls (who were screaming for help) - and some of the boys even joined in - and it&#039;s all on video. And that happened in the United States, not the back corners of the world where there&#039;s no law enforcement. By this anthropologist&#039;s argument, we should shrug that off as &quot;something that just happens in this society&quot; because the boys were treating it as a normal and fun act.

F**K THAT.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I call bullshit.</p>
<p>I can understand being too terrified to intervene. I would not attempt to justify my fear by stating: &#8220;Oh, well, that&#8217;s just what they do here.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is not Star Trek. There is no Prime Directive. </p>
<p>There is nothing written anywhere that states we have to allow harm to come to others because of where those people live. If there was, you wouldn&#8217;t see all the campaigns that attempt to stop people from being stoned to death. You wouldn&#8217;t see people stepping in to try and put an end to the brutality happening in Somalia.</p>
<p>There are no cultural &#8220;consequences&#8221; to preventing a rape, except that you&#8217;re helping a girl/woman (generally) NOT become an outcast. If anything, you&#8217;re performing a cultural service by ensuring her safety. In most of those societies, the stigma on rape victims far exceeds what we see in the U.S., and by preventing the rape, you&#8217;re making sure the girl/woman still has a future in her village.</p>
<p>Things like this infuriate me. People need to stop making excuses for passively standing by and allowing horrible things to happen to people who don&#8217;t deserve them. Think of those two gang rapes that happened outside of high school dances. Boys were standing around LAUGHING at the girls (who were screaming for help) &#8211; and some of the boys even joined in &#8211; and it&#8217;s all on video. And that happened in the United States, not the back corners of the world where there&#8217;s no law enforcement. By this anthropologist&#8217;s argument, we should shrug that off as &#8220;something that just happens in this society&#8221; because the boys were treating it as a normal and fun act.</p>
<p>F**K THAT.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Crommunist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17168</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Crommunist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17168</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I &lt;a href=&quot;http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/11/10/superstition-is-not-culture/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote a similar piece&lt;/a&gt;, albeit about superstition (although I did write &lt;a href=&quot;http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/07/08/a-remarkable-article/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one about rape too&lt;/a&gt;), with respect to well-intentioned thoughts about paternalism. The main thrust of my position is that culture should not be thought of as an inviolable, sacred, static entity. Exchange of ideas is what humans do, and have done since the beginning of time. It is no more wrong to say &quot;rape is bad, and here&#039;s why&quot; than it is to say &quot;say, have you heard about germ theory?&quot;

Superstition, violence, hatred - these things are not culture, and it does &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; harm to allow them to continue than it does to remain hands-off for fear of bullying.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/11/10/superstition-is-not-culture/" rel="nofollow">wrote a similar piece</a>, albeit about superstition (although I did write <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/07/08/a-remarkable-article/" rel="nofollow">one about rape too</a>), with respect to well-intentioned thoughts about paternalism. The main thrust of my position is that culture should not be thought of as an inviolable, sacred, static entity. Exchange of ideas is what humans do, and have done since the beginning of time. It is no more wrong to say &#8220;rape is bad, and here&#8217;s why&#8221; than it is to say &#8220;say, have you heard about germ theory?&#8221;</p>
<p>Superstition, violence, hatred &#8211; these things are not culture, and it does <i>more</i> harm to allow them to continue than it does to remain hands-off for fear of bullying.</p>
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		<title>
		By: besomyka		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17167</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[besomyka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17167</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When I read the story, before I read your commentary afterwards, I thought: this is bullshit, it&#039;s never right to harm another person against their will.  Sure, I think ritual scarification as a rite of passage is pretty barbaric, but if the boys that go through it are willing... not my place to judge.

But in this situation, the girl is clearly unwilling and she has the support of other members of her tribe.  this is not some sort of consensual barbarity, but is an action that violates what is expected as civil conduct of those people.  They were fighting over her!  It wasn&#039;t like they showed up and the girl, resigned, willingly went with them because, although she didn&#039;t like it, it was what was expected.  No, she was fighting.

Whoever wrote that (or something similar) misread the situation.  What was happening wasn&#039;t &#039;normal&#039;.  Common, perhaps, but not socially acceptable.

Besides which harming other people against their will is as close to a moral universal that we&#039;ll ever have.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read the story, before I read your commentary afterwards, I thought: this is bullshit, it&#8217;s never right to harm another person against their will.  Sure, I think ritual scarification as a rite of passage is pretty barbaric, but if the boys that go through it are willing&#8230; not my place to judge.</p>
<p>But in this situation, the girl is clearly unwilling and she has the support of other members of her tribe.  this is not some sort of consensual barbarity, but is an action that violates what is expected as civil conduct of those people.  They were fighting over her!  It wasn&#8217;t like they showed up and the girl, resigned, willingly went with them because, although she didn&#8217;t like it, it was what was expected.  No, she was fighting.</p>
<p>Whoever wrote that (or something similar) misread the situation.  What was happening wasn&#8217;t &#8216;normal&#8217;.  Common, perhaps, but not socially acceptable.</p>
<p>Besides which harming other people against their will is as close to a moral universal that we&#8217;ll ever have.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Toasted Rye		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17166</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Toasted Rye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17166</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe I will just be honest here. I thought long and hard about this question. At one point in my life I entertained the thought of being an anthropologist. I since changed my mind for other pursuits but I began with and still have a love for anthropology. I tend to be pretty culturally reletivistic but with a side of we still have an obligation to right moral wrongs where we see them even if the introduction of dichotimous moral delimmas is for a limited time chaotic for a particular culture. Culture is not static and we should not try to keep it so. That being said I do feel there is to some degree a professional obligation on the part of the ethnographer to not interfere with a culture. Anthropology only maintains its credibility as a science when we can minimize the variables as much as possible. So yes this situation was a delimma for me. Still the noble savage in me thinks I would intervene. That I would end my data collection at that point and prevent the rape of the woman in question. Such a nobel idea it is in my head to do so. Then the honest savage in me says that I might not. I would want to of course. I would look in disguist at the actions of the men and myself as I let it happen. I would rationalize all the while that it puts me in danger if I interfere (while knowing it mostly just puts my research in danger).  I would spend probably the rest of my life weighing my decision and knowing I made the wrong one. I would consider all the consequences over and over and try my damnedest to convince myself that rape wasn&#039;t as bad for her as it is for the rape victims in developed countries. So while I would want to stop such and action without hesitation, I might not have the selflessness to do so.  That is the sad truth. In my head I am a better human than I am in life.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I will just be honest here. I thought long and hard about this question. At one point in my life I entertained the thought of being an anthropologist. I since changed my mind for other pursuits but I began with and still have a love for anthropology. I tend to be pretty culturally reletivistic but with a side of we still have an obligation to right moral wrongs where we see them even if the introduction of dichotimous moral delimmas is for a limited time chaotic for a particular culture. Culture is not static and we should not try to keep it so. That being said I do feel there is to some degree a professional obligation on the part of the ethnographer to not interfere with a culture. Anthropology only maintains its credibility as a science when we can minimize the variables as much as possible. So yes this situation was a delimma for me. Still the noble savage in me thinks I would intervene. That I would end my data collection at that point and prevent the rape of the woman in question. Such a nobel idea it is in my head to do so. Then the honest savage in me says that I might not. I would want to of course. I would look in disguist at the actions of the men and myself as I let it happen. I would rationalize all the while that it puts me in danger if I interfere (while knowing it mostly just puts my research in danger).  I would spend probably the rest of my life weighing my decision and knowing I made the wrong one. I would consider all the consequences over and over and try my damnedest to convince myself that rape wasn&#8217;t as bad for her as it is for the rape victims in developed countries. So while I would want to stop such and action without hesitation, I might not have the selflessness to do so.  That is the sad truth. In my head I am a better human than I am in life.</p>
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		By: The Baseline: How much sexual assault is there? &#124; The X Blog		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17165</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Baseline: How much sexual assault is there? &#124; The X Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17165</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Expanding on our earlier discussion&#8230; [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Expanding on our earlier discussion&#8230; [&#8230;]</p>
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		By: FBI fixes rape defnition: will include male victims and non-penile violation &#124; Lousy Canuck		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17164</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FBI fixes rape defnition: will include male victims and non-penile violation &#124; Lousy Canuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17164</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] on Freethought Blogs, my friend and colleague Greg Laden is reviving his friend and colleague Sheril Kirschenbaum&#8217;s Silence is the Enemy Campaign from 2009. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] on Freethought Blogs, my friend and colleague Greg Laden is reviving his friend and colleague Sheril Kirschenbaum&#8217;s Silence is the Enemy Campaign from 2009. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Giliell, the woman who said Good-bye to Kitty		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17163</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Giliell, the woman who said Good-bye to Kitty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17163</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Given the scenario: Holy octopus, even Captain Picard who shits rose-petals would have been justified to intervene, since there were clearly two opposing sides.
It&#039;s not like abducting a young woman from an arranged marrige because you happen to be opposed to that although she&#039;s smiling at her husband.
I do in general refuse to say &quot;what would I do&quot; in an extreme situation I haven&#039;t been in. That&#039;s the only honest answer I can give.
Curling up crying or running away and hiding would be options, too.
But that doesn&#039;t mean that those would be the best options, or the most moral ones. Those are human ones and I acknowledge that I am human.
Would anybody criticise the person if he&#039;d said: Shit I was scared and frightened and I simply didn&#039;t know what to do?
But justifying it with &quot;it&#039;s their culture&quot; is sick.
If that&#039;s really his opinion, he became complicit in the crime.

As a related story: 
I don&#039;t know how familiar you are with the author Stig Larrson. The original title of his &quot;Girl with the dragon tatoo&quot; books is &quot;Men who hate women&quot;.
His writings have a biographical background. When he was a teenager he witnessed some older boys raping a girl. He could have done something, he didn&#039;t do anything and this experience shaped him, he became a vocal feminist. And years later he met that woman again, and he said he was sorry and he really had changed and could she ever fogive him and she told him that, no shit, she would never forgive him, because he had the chance to help her and he didn&#039;t help her and no matter how much good he did in his life, it would never make amends for what he&#039;d done to her.

What makes rape such an &quot;acceptable&quot; crime that people will look away?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the scenario: Holy octopus, even Captain Picard who shits rose-petals would have been justified to intervene, since there were clearly two opposing sides.<br />
It&#8217;s not like abducting a young woman from an arranged marrige because you happen to be opposed to that although she&#8217;s smiling at her husband.<br />
I do in general refuse to say &#8220;what would I do&#8221; in an extreme situation I haven&#8217;t been in. That&#8217;s the only honest answer I can give.<br />
Curling up crying or running away and hiding would be options, too.<br />
But that doesn&#8217;t mean that those would be the best options, or the most moral ones. Those are human ones and I acknowledge that I am human.<br />
Would anybody criticise the person if he&#8217;d said: Shit I was scared and frightened and I simply didn&#8217;t know what to do?<br />
But justifying it with &#8220;it&#8217;s their culture&#8221; is sick.<br />
If that&#8217;s really his opinion, he became complicit in the crime.</p>
<p>As a related story:<br />
I don&#8217;t know how familiar you are with the author Stig Larrson. The original title of his &#8220;Girl with the dragon tatoo&#8221; books is &#8220;Men who hate women&#8221;.<br />
His writings have a biographical background. When he was a teenager he witnessed some older boys raping a girl. He could have done something, he didn&#8217;t do anything and this experience shaped him, he became a vocal feminist. And years later he met that woman again, and he said he was sorry and he really had changed and could she ever fogive him and she told him that, no shit, she would never forgive him, because he had the chance to help her and he didn&#8217;t help her and no matter how much good he did in his life, it would never make amends for what he&#8217;d done to her.</p>
<p>What makes rape such an &#8220;acceptable&#8221; crime that people will look away?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17162</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 05:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17162</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The MRAs are clustering at my Lobster Effect post at sb.com, but seem frightened to come over here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MRAs are clustering at my Lobster Effect post at sb.com, but seem frightened to come over here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17161</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 00:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17161</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Call it the naturalistic fallacy, and the chief problem with trying to judge all cultures in a pluralistic fashion. Yes, it&#039;s not your culture, and this culture might have different societal mores and different levels of acceptability. However, empathy is universal. If you intervene, assuming you and the woman survive, she will surely thank you for your preventing this violence. I can&#039;t imagine a single culture on Earth where the person being raped would be upset that you intervened.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call it the naturalistic fallacy, and the chief problem with trying to judge all cultures in a pluralistic fashion. Yes, it&#8217;s not your culture, and this culture might have different societal mores and different levels of acceptability. However, empathy is universal. If you intervene, assuming you and the woman survive, she will surely thank you for your preventing this violence. I can&#8217;t imagine a single culture on Earth where the person being raped would be upset that you intervened.</p>
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		<title>
		By: WMDKitty		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/27/a-rape-in-progress/#comment-17160</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WMDKitty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 00:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=1087#comment-17160</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Of course you should intervene! Screw &quot;cultural norms&quot;, I&#039;m not about to let a fellow woman be violated like that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course you should intervene! Screw &#8220;cultural norms&#8221;, I&#8217;m not about to let a fellow woman be violated like that.</p>
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