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	Comments on: Ooops&#8230; we left all the children behind	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Jack Cope		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509230</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Cope]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509230</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No Child Left behind always boggled me right from the offset. The name in itself is the clue, we all sail at the speed of the slowest ship so if your slowest pupil can&#039;t get reading then that means all those who can read are going to keep going over the same stuff over and over again. Tests based stuff just reminds me of this cartoon:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175013999254049&amp;set=a.118861398202643.30827.118858758202907&amp;type=1&amp;theater

Overall, I think education fails students in general needs a big shake up. I did my education in the UK as I&#039;m British but the same problems exist. As a person who has &#039;learning difficulties&#039; and was thus a &#039;straggler&#039; at school, I was dumped right down at the bottom. Thankfully I was spotted by an observant special needs teacher, diagnosed with Dispraxia and Dyslexia and got the help I needed. I was, I might add, in a private school, not a state school, so the facilities were there. Hundreds if not thousands of kids are not so lucky and every year are thought to just be &#039;thick&#039;.

I think education needs to do a few things and many of them were mentioned above and in the comments. First, we&#039;ve got to recognize that not everyone needs a degree or will do well at traditional subjects. That doesn&#039;t make them stupid, I know many an intelligent craftsman. They just have a different intelligence, they are smart with wood or metal or whatever. Putting them through the one size fits all mangler that is &#039;education&#039; kills any intelligence they might have. We should cater for that.

Second, we need to &#039;educate&#039; not teach. Education should be teaching people how to learn, teaching is pumping in facts and hoping some stick. Kids are smart, teach them how to educate themselves and they will! Like someone said, the human infant is programed to learn, why do we find that so bad? They&#039;re the best at finding what they are good at and where they are strong. Give them lots of options at a young age and they&#039;ll sort it out.

Thirdly, we need to spend money on it. If a country can afford atomic weapons and giant aircraft carriers and can&#039;t afford a decent education system (or healthcare for that matter) then the priorities are not in order.

Finally, you can&#039;t just throw money at it. I think the author is right; many things like organizing teachers better need to be done if education is to succeed. Without it, any nation is doomed. 

China is going to have this problem soon enough as well, they&#039;ve not been educating, just teaching. Thousands of out of work graduates, not much &#039;intelligence&#039; between them. Great if you need factory workers or people to press buttons all day but wave goodby to innovation...

Jack]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Child Left behind always boggled me right from the offset. The name in itself is the clue, we all sail at the speed of the slowest ship so if your slowest pupil can&#8217;t get reading then that means all those who can read are going to keep going over the same stuff over and over again. Tests based stuff just reminds me of this cartoon:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175013999254049&#038;set=a.118861398202643.30827.118858758202907&#038;type=1&#038;theater" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175013999254049&#038;set=a.118861398202643.30827.118858758202907&#038;type=1&#038;theater</a></p>
<p>Overall, I think education fails students in general needs a big shake up. I did my education in the UK as I&#8217;m British but the same problems exist. As a person who has &#8216;learning difficulties&#8217; and was thus a &#8216;straggler&#8217; at school, I was dumped right down at the bottom. Thankfully I was spotted by an observant special needs teacher, diagnosed with Dispraxia and Dyslexia and got the help I needed. I was, I might add, in a private school, not a state school, so the facilities were there. Hundreds if not thousands of kids are not so lucky and every year are thought to just be &#8216;thick&#8217;.</p>
<p>I think education needs to do a few things and many of them were mentioned above and in the comments. First, we&#8217;ve got to recognize that not everyone needs a degree or will do well at traditional subjects. That doesn&#8217;t make them stupid, I know many an intelligent craftsman. They just have a different intelligence, they are smart with wood or metal or whatever. Putting them through the one size fits all mangler that is &#8216;education&#8217; kills any intelligence they might have. We should cater for that.</p>
<p>Second, we need to &#8216;educate&#8217; not teach. Education should be teaching people how to learn, teaching is pumping in facts and hoping some stick. Kids are smart, teach them how to educate themselves and they will! Like someone said, the human infant is programed to learn, why do we find that so bad? They&#8217;re the best at finding what they are good at and where they are strong. Give them lots of options at a young age and they&#8217;ll sort it out.</p>
<p>Thirdly, we need to spend money on it. If a country can afford atomic weapons and giant aircraft carriers and can&#8217;t afford a decent education system (or healthcare for that matter) then the priorities are not in order.</p>
<p>Finally, you can&#8217;t just throw money at it. I think the author is right; many things like organizing teachers better need to be done if education is to succeed. Without it, any nation is doomed. </p>
<p>China is going to have this problem soon enough as well, they&#8217;ve not been educating, just teaching. Thousands of out of work graduates, not much &#8216;intelligence&#8217; between them. Great if you need factory workers or people to press buttons all day but wave goodby to innovation&#8230;</p>
<p>Jack</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wow		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509229</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509229</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s like this Onkel et al: Republicans push either the complete privatisation of schools (killing inner city education) citing the mythical power of Free Market Ideals to be the solution to education&#039;s woes. Democrats try to get something that may get past the Republicans by using &quot;The Free Market Ideals&quot; in a method of accountancy for educationalists. Now known as NCLB.

Like the Single Payer Option, the better options were NOT possible because one entire party very nearly to a man would block it and many in the other party are beholden to interests that wouldn&#039;t fund their campaigns unless they toe the line.

When 95% of Republicans and 40% of Democrats are behind a bad idea, not only is it impossible to get a good one through, the blame by party label is NOT equally apportioned.

The Republicans aren&#039;t responsible for some Dems being DINOs, that IS genuinely the fault of the Democratic party.

But bipartisan support when one side will NEVER accept a proposal form the other isn&#039;t proof that both sides are equally culpable in passing bad legislation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s like this Onkel et al: Republicans push either the complete privatisation of schools (killing inner city education) citing the mythical power of Free Market Ideals to be the solution to education&#8217;s woes. Democrats try to get something that may get past the Republicans by using &#8220;The Free Market Ideals&#8221; in a method of accountancy for educationalists. Now known as NCLB.</p>
<p>Like the Single Payer Option, the better options were NOT possible because one entire party very nearly to a man would block it and many in the other party are beholden to interests that wouldn&#8217;t fund their campaigns unless they toe the line.</p>
<p>When 95% of Republicans and 40% of Democrats are behind a bad idea, not only is it impossible to get a good one through, the blame by party label is NOT equally apportioned.</p>
<p>The Republicans aren&#8217;t responsible for some Dems being DINOs, that IS genuinely the fault of the Democratic party.</p>
<p>But bipartisan support when one side will NEVER accept a proposal form the other isn&#8217;t proof that both sides are equally culpable in passing bad legislation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: bo moore		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509228</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bo moore]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509228</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I monitor grad level education courses for a state university; the content is all about the $$$$$ that can  made by professional parasites. Dysfunctional kids, parents and schools are a paradise of profit for all the industries that have been created by NOT educating children: criminal justice, psychiatry, drug treatment, legal and illegal drugs, technology, remedial classes, special classes, curriculum development, research, and on and on, condemning so many American kids to dismal futures. The result is an unhealthy society of infantile consumers, not producers.  

Human infants arrive primed to learn - it&#039;s instinct, it&#039;s nature - but we view this utterly natural and positive process as abnormal! Raising children to be functioning adults is presented as cruel and unusual punishment, discriminatory and impossible. Crazy, but profitable. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I monitor grad level education courses for a state university; the content is all about the $$$$$ that can  made by professional parasites. Dysfunctional kids, parents and schools are a paradise of profit for all the industries that have been created by NOT educating children: criminal justice, psychiatry, drug treatment, legal and illegal drugs, technology, remedial classes, special classes, curriculum development, research, and on and on, condemning so many American kids to dismal futures. The result is an unhealthy society of infantile consumers, not producers.  </p>
<p>Human infants arrive primed to learn &#8211; it&#8217;s instinct, it&#8217;s nature &#8211; but we view this utterly natural and positive process as abnormal! Raising children to be functioning adults is presented as cruel and unusual punishment, discriminatory and impossible. Crazy, but profitable. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509227</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 03:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509227</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, it is not a simple story.  I even considered adding the phrase &quot;passed with bipartisan support&quot; to the first sentence of this post when I first wrote it. But I didn&#039;t because I would have then had to spend time explaining why it wasn&#039;t really bipartisan support over the last so many years, and how it was a compromise even then, and how there were warnings that it better be funded but it then was not funded.  Kennedy had more negative to say about NCLB, as it developed as an unfunded mandate, than he had positive to say about it at the time it was passed.  

But all that would have been a distraction to the point of this post.  And, I figured somebody would bring it up in the comments anyway. 

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it is not a simple story.  I even considered adding the phrase &#8220;passed with bipartisan support&#8221; to the first sentence of this post when I first wrote it. But I didn&#8217;t because I would have then had to spend time explaining why it wasn&#8217;t really bipartisan support over the last so many years, and how it was a compromise even then, and how there were warnings that it better be funded but it then was not funded.  Kennedy had more negative to say about NCLB, as it developed as an unfunded mandate, than he had positive to say about it at the time it was passed.  </p>
<p>But all that would have been a distraction to the point of this post.  And, I figured somebody would bring it up in the comments anyway. </p>
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		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509226</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 02:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509226</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My point is, Greg and others, that you&#039;re being partisan by only blaming Bush.

It&#039;s not a simple Democrats good/Republicans bad issue.  Sorry I&#039;m seen as an enemy for saying that (more evidence of blind partisanship on your part).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is, Greg and others, that you&#8217;re being partisan by only blaming Bush.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a simple Democrats good/Republicans bad issue.  Sorry I&#8217;m seen as an enemy for saying that (more evidence of blind partisanship on your part).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509225</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509225</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Onkel, I&#039;m pretty sure Steve was obfuscating the point, though perhaps unintentional. Kennedy may have sponsored the bill, but a) he fought to have it funded and the Bushies stopped that from happening and b) progressive educators swallowed the NCLB pill in a conservative anti-teacher and anti-education climate as the next best thing to having the NEA disbanded and wholesale sellouts to charter schools, and hoped to make it work (and it could have) but at every stage, shifting resources to wealthier suburban schools and closing down inner city schools and all that sort of thing was the political agenda and NCLB the tool to apply that agenda.  The progressives that helped craft this at the beginning got off the boat way back when.  NCLB was a Bush/Republican policy that got bipartisan support for good reasons that went away at the very beginning. 

Steve either doesn&#039;t know that or is deflecting.  

It is the position of the Democratic Party to make high quality education available to everyone.  &quot;Neither party wants an informed electorate&quot; is cynical false balancing.  Mostly.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Onkel, I&#8217;m pretty sure Steve was obfuscating the point, though perhaps unintentional. Kennedy may have sponsored the bill, but a) he fought to have it funded and the Bushies stopped that from happening and b) progressive educators swallowed the NCLB pill in a conservative anti-teacher and anti-education climate as the next best thing to having the NEA disbanded and wholesale sellouts to charter schools, and hoped to make it work (and it could have) but at every stage, shifting resources to wealthier suburban schools and closing down inner city schools and all that sort of thing was the political agenda and NCLB the tool to apply that agenda.  The progressives that helped craft this at the beginning got off the boat way back when.  NCLB was a Bush/Republican policy that got bipartisan support for good reasons that went away at the very beginning. </p>
<p>Steve either doesn&#8217;t know that or is deflecting.  </p>
<p>It is the position of the Democratic Party to make high quality education available to everyone.  &#8220;Neither party wants an informed electorate&#8221; is cynical false balancing.  Mostly.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Jessica		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509224</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509224</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mu makes a good point. We in the US start with the idea that all students can (and should) go to college, while other countries spend resources on preparing students for a variety of levels of job skills and academic pursuits. As a high school teacher I know not every kid is capable of being an astronaut or surgeon, but it&#039;s politically dangerous to say so here or at school.

Trying to treat every kid as having exactly the same potential neglects all the social and cognitive differences that makes every student unique.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mu makes a good point. We in the US start with the idea that all students can (and should) go to college, while other countries spend resources on preparing students for a variety of levels of job skills and academic pursuits. As a high school teacher I know not every kid is capable of being an astronaut or surgeon, but it&#8217;s politically dangerous to say so here or at school.</p>
<p>Trying to treat every kid as having exactly the same potential neglects all the social and cognitive differences that makes every student unique.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dean		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509223</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509223</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Neither party wants an informed electorate&quot; 

That may be true to some extent, but I wonder if the notion that there was once an &quot;educated electorate&quot; is as lacking in fact as the idea there was a &quot;glorious time back in the 50s&quot;, or whenever,  that so many conservatives wish they could return the country to.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Neither party wants an informed electorate&#8221; </p>
<p>That may be true to some extent, but I wonder if the notion that there was once an &#8220;educated electorate&#8221; is as lacking in fact as the idea there was a &#8220;glorious time back in the 50s&#8221;, or whenever,  that so many conservatives wish they could return the country to.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Onkel Bob		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509222</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Onkel Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509222</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;So, Steve, what is your point? &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I cannot, and do not, speak for Steve; however, I interpret his point as being both sides - Democrats and Republicans are responsible for the mess we are currently experiencing.  If we as a &lt;i&gt;population&lt;/i&gt;, want to improve that situation, then we as an &lt;i&gt;electorate&lt;/i&gt; need to stop electing both Democrats and Republicans.  I rely on the old adage, when choosing between two evils (or in this case more than two evils) I like to go with the one I have not experienced yet.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I believe Alan has it right when he writes:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem with an educated population is that they might start making informed decisions at the ballot box.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Neither party wants an informed electorate, both want the electorate to make decisions solely from an emotional standpoint.  They stand a much better chance of winning the election.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, Steve, what is your point? </p></blockquote>
<p>I cannot, and do not, speak for Steve; however, I interpret his point as being both sides &#8211; Democrats and Republicans are responsible for the mess we are currently experiencing.  If we as a <i>population</i>, want to improve that situation, then we as an <i>electorate</i> need to stop electing both Democrats and Republicans.  I rely on the old adage, when choosing between two evils (or in this case more than two evils) I like to go with the one I have not experienced yet.</p>
<p>I believe Alan has it right when he writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>The problem with an educated population is that they might start making informed decisions at the ballot box.</p></blockquote>
<p>Neither party wants an informed electorate, both want the electorate to make decisions solely from an emotional standpoint.  They stand a much better chance of winning the election.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509221</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/10/25/ooops-we-left-all-the-children/#comment-509221</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, it did receive overwhelming bipartisan support, and along with NCLB there were a number of other education related laws that were proposed and mostly fought off by Kennedy and others. NCLB was also funded reasonably well by amendments that were not supported by the Republicans and the Bush White house.  And the invasion of Iraq was signed on to by a majority of Democrats but no one seriously considered that to have been a Democratic war.

So, Steve, what is your point? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it did receive overwhelming bipartisan support, and along with NCLB there were a number of other education related laws that were proposed and mostly fought off by Kennedy and others. NCLB was also funded reasonably well by amendments that were not supported by the Republicans and the Bush White house.  And the invasion of Iraq was signed on to by a majority of Democrats but no one seriously considered that to have been a Democratic war.</p>
<p>So, Steve, what is your point? </p>
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