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	Comments on: I am fed up with all this talk about education reform.  Coming from you.	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 01:46:25 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Quietmarc		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11468</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quietmarc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 01:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11468</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ha! Before I even got past the first sentence, my &quot;solution&quot; was pretty much &quot;Throw money at it! Stop cutting funding! Go back to small classroom sizes, adequately paid teachers, and funds for new schoolbooks, computers, and whatever else schools need!!!&quot;

But then, I&#039;m of a generation that basically had everything cut one or two years before I got there, so it&#039;s easy for me to see the problem. Schools are dead broke. They&#039;re trying to run a millionnaire&#039;s budget on a pensioner&#039;s paycheque. 

Any problems after that (lesson content, teaching styles, the mysterious &quot;10% of teachers suck&quot; assertion) are insignificant next to the lack of funding.

And, because I&#039;m not an expert, after saying throw money at it, I&#039;m content to let the experts do the rest.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! Before I even got past the first sentence, my &#8220;solution&#8221; was pretty much &#8220;Throw money at it! Stop cutting funding! Go back to small classroom sizes, adequately paid teachers, and funds for new schoolbooks, computers, and whatever else schools need!!!&#8221;</p>
<p>But then, I&#8217;m of a generation that basically had everything cut one or two years before I got there, so it&#8217;s easy for me to see the problem. Schools are dead broke. They&#8217;re trying to run a millionnaire&#8217;s budget on a pensioner&#8217;s paycheque. </p>
<p>Any problems after that (lesson content, teaching styles, the mysterious &#8220;10% of teachers suck&#8221; assertion) are insignificant next to the lack of funding.</p>
<p>And, because I&#8217;m not an expert, after saying throw money at it, I&#8217;m content to let the experts do the rest.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MV		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11467</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 03:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11467</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As someone who is retraining to become a teacher this is the information that I have been taught regarding class sizes:
good (effective) teachers can teach 25 students as well as they can teach 15.
average teachers can be as effective as good teachers if they teach 15 students.

So, in general, reducing class size from 25 to 20 is pretty much a waste of money.  You can make average teachers more effective through training.  Or you can hire more teachers.  Either will work but one is probably a lot cheaper.  

There is a lot of crappy research in the education field.  However, there is no shortage of known ways to improve student achievement that is not implemented.  It requires time, training, support, and as a result, money.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who is retraining to become a teacher this is the information that I have been taught regarding class sizes:<br />
good (effective) teachers can teach 25 students as well as they can teach 15.<br />
average teachers can be as effective as good teachers if they teach 15 students.</p>
<p>So, in general, reducing class size from 25 to 20 is pretty much a waste of money.  You can make average teachers more effective through training.  Or you can hire more teachers.  Either will work but one is probably a lot cheaper.  </p>
<p>There is a lot of crappy research in the education field.  However, there is no shortage of known ways to improve student achievement that is not implemented.  It requires time, training, support, and as a result, money.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Pen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11466</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 02:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11466</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh yes, you&#039;re also quite right that ideal class sizes aren&#039;t the point.  I thought the point was that you don&#039;t want people making random unsupported suggestions for education reform.  My point was: you seemed to be doing just what you&#039;re complaining about.  Was it an oversight?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes, you&#8217;re also quite right that ideal class sizes aren&#8217;t the point.  I thought the point was that you don&#8217;t want people making random unsupported suggestions for education reform.  My point was: you seemed to be doing just what you&#8217;re complaining about.  Was it an oversight?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Pen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11465</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11465</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Pen, reading your later comment, I now see you came here prepared for this fight,but thinking it was a different fight, or thinking that everyone was already thinking what you were thinking they were thinking.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No Greg, I merely noticed you had made a strong assertion without backing it up.  Then when Maureen made a comment I found slightly offensive in tone (and not terribly convincing because it&#039;s 30 years old), I spent 5 minutes with Google.  Not prepared at all... no fight... except maybe that I&#039;m very into evidence-based practices, so I&#039;m always willing to fight for those.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Pen, reading your later comment, I now see you came here prepared for this fight,but thinking it was a different fight, or thinking that everyone was already thinking what you were thinking they were thinking.</p></blockquote>
<p>No Greg, I merely noticed you had made a strong assertion without backing it up.  Then when Maureen made a comment I found slightly offensive in tone (and not terribly convincing because it&#8217;s 30 years old), I spent 5 minutes with Google.  Not prepared at all&#8230; no fight&#8230; except maybe that I&#8217;m very into evidence-based practices, so I&#8217;m always willing to fight for those.</p>
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		<title>
		By: maureen.brian		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11464</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[maureen.brian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11464</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I expected you to know of that research, Greg, but I still want to claim my gold star for not leaping to the conclusion that we were talking international comparisons.  Even though I am in a country which  -  oh! horrors!  -  is not the USA.

Pen did ask whether there had been any research on class size, which would suggest a failure of the google finger.  When he then presented to me a piece of Friedmanite special pleading as though it were evidence I promptly forgot about him.

Interestingly, Hanushek has changed jobs and now appears to be pushing the notion that the problems of low achievement would be best tackled by spending more money.  And of that sort of shift an early result would be  -  wait for it  -  smaller class sizes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I expected you to know of that research, Greg, but I still want to claim my gold star for not leaping to the conclusion that we were talking international comparisons.  Even though I am in a country which  &#8211;  oh! horrors!  &#8211;  is not the USA.</p>
<p>Pen did ask whether there had been any research on class size, which would suggest a failure of the google finger.  When he then presented to me a piece of Friedmanite special pleading as though it were evidence I promptly forgot about him.</p>
<p>Interestingly, Hanushek has changed jobs and now appears to be pushing the notion that the problems of low achievement would be best tackled by spending more money.  And of that sort of shift an early result would be  &#8211;  wait for it  &#8211;  smaller class sizes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Justin Zimmer		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11463</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin Zimmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11463</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Money. Money. Money...

Anyone with a child in school today watching as more and more flyers come home asking for more and more donations, fundraisers, school supplies, etc. It is painfully clear that our schools can barely keep their doors open. They are running on shoe strings. I can&#039;t speak for all schools, but my local district is doing what they can with what they have! They are teaching  so much more today in better ways than I remember as a child, but with less money. You&#039;re right, I have nothing to say about the education system in America other than it is ridiculously under funded. How about we take all the free money we&#039;re giving churches and put that into education?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money. Money. Money&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyone with a child in school today watching as more and more flyers come home asking for more and more donations, fundraisers, school supplies, etc. It is painfully clear that our schools can barely keep their doors open. They are running on shoe strings. I can&#8217;t speak for all schools, but my local district is doing what they can with what they have! They are teaching  so much more today in better ways than I remember as a child, but with less money. You&#8217;re right, I have nothing to say about the education system in America other than it is ridiculously under funded. How about we take all the free money we&#8217;re giving churches and put that into education?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrew G.		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11462</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew G.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11462</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mike&#039;s posts also &lt;a href=&quot;http://mikethemadbiologist.com/2010/10/18/i_agree_with_bob_somerbys_educ/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;contradict the claim&lt;/a&gt; that the US system has failed to improve over time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike&#8217;s posts also <a href="http://mikethemadbiologist.com/2010/10/18/i_agree_with_bob_somerbys_educ/" rel="nofollow">contradict the claim</a> that the US system has failed to improve over time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Andrew, Mike&#039;s stuff is great, but please everyone, you must read my sentences without inserting &quot;than other countries&quot; into them, because that is not what I said or meant!  &quot;Remaind the same&quot; means over time, generally.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, Mike&#8217;s stuff is great, but please everyone, you must read my sentences without inserting &#8220;than other countries&#8221; into them, because that is not what I said or meant!  &#8220;Remaind the same&#8221; means over time, generally.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrew G.		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11460</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew G.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11460</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
Hereâ€™s the thing. Our system of education in this country has remained the same or gotten worse in most measures, objectively and scientifically.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

[citation needed]

&lt;a href=&quot;http://mikethemadbiologist.com/category/education/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mike the Mad Biologist&lt;/a&gt; has a long series of blog posts on education in the US. He consistently makes the point that the US education system is as good as anywhere in the world &lt;b&gt;if you control for levels of child poverty&lt;/b&gt;, which is the single biggest factor affecting educational outcomes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Hereâ€™s the thing. Our system of education in this country has remained the same or gotten worse in most measures, objectively and scientifically.
</p></blockquote>
<p>[citation needed]</p>
<p><a href="http://mikethemadbiologist.com/category/education/" rel="nofollow">Mike the Mad Biologist</a> has a long series of blog posts on education in the US. He consistently makes the point that the US education system is as good as anywhere in the world <b>if you control for levels of child poverty</b>, which is the single biggest factor affecting educational outcomes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: scenario		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/09/09/i-am-fed-up-with-all-this-talk-about-education-reform-coming-from-you/#comment-11459</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scenario]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/?p=135#comment-11459</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From my admittedly anecdotal experience as a substitute teacher, class size has a large effect.  In my experience there is a cut off point somewhere around 22 or 23 students where the class gets to be much more difficult to control. Teachers with small classes, 15 or less, spend most of the time teaching.  Teachers with large classes, 25 or more, spend a lot less time teaching and a lot more time disciplining.  You can teach large classes well but at the expense of individualized instruction, assuming that your willing to let the bottom third of the class fail. 

The other factor is poverty.  When children come to school hungry and on two hours sleep because they were taking care of younger siblings, they do not learn as well.  

I&#039;m sure that tea baggers believe that it is the teachers fault that their students belong to a gang or are so terrified of gangs that they are afraid to do well in school.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my admittedly anecdotal experience as a substitute teacher, class size has a large effect.  In my experience there is a cut off point somewhere around 22 or 23 students where the class gets to be much more difficult to control. Teachers with small classes, 15 or less, spend most of the time teaching.  Teachers with large classes, 25 or more, spend a lot less time teaching and a lot more time disciplining.  You can teach large classes well but at the expense of individualized instruction, assuming that your willing to let the bottom third of the class fail. </p>
<p>The other factor is poverty.  When children come to school hungry and on two hours sleep because they were taking care of younger siblings, they do not learn as well.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that tea baggers believe that it is the teachers fault that their students belong to a gang or are so terrified of gangs that they are afraid to do well in school.</p>
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