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	Comments on: Birders Need to More Actively Embrace Evolution	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:38:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: mark		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506958</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506958</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You need 2 books: A compact, effective field guide for identification, and a more complete volume(s) for in-depth descriptions of relationships, behavior, and so on. Read the second book at leisure so that when you do go birding, you have the deeper understanding, but bring the field guide so so know you&#039;re understanding the correct bird.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You need 2 books: A compact, effective field guide for identification, and a more complete volume(s) for in-depth descriptions of relationships, behavior, and so on. Read the second book at leisure so that when you do go birding, you have the deeper understanding, but bring the field guide so so know you&#8217;re understanding the correct bird.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Pete Moulton		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506957</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pete Moulton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506957</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There you go, David.

As to what I think of as the &quot;Great Field Guide Controversy,&quot; my own preference in an actual field guide--one that really is intended for use in the field, that is--is for one where the similar-looking birds are grouped together for ready reference, as opposed to one where similarly-appearing species might be widely separated because of their taxonomy. The reason for this is simple: the people who regularly use field guides in the field are typically comparatively new to birding, and are much more concerned about naming a species correctly in the first place than they are about the nuances of its taxonomic position.

Roger Tory Peterson knew this very well, and his plate of the White-throated Swift and Violet-green Swallow is a prime example. These birds aren&#039;t closely related, of course, but for a new birder who sees them only briefly and possibly imperfectly they can be confusing, and Peterson wanted a direct comparison to facilitate separation. Once a new birder gains some ID experience, and can relinquish the security blanket of constant reference to a field guide, there&#039;ll be plenty of time to look into the birds&#039; actual taxonomy and evolution.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There you go, David.</p>
<p>As to what I think of as the &#8220;Great Field Guide Controversy,&#8221; my own preference in an actual field guide&#8211;one that really is intended for use in the field, that is&#8211;is for one where the similar-looking birds are grouped together for ready reference, as opposed to one where similarly-appearing species might be widely separated because of their taxonomy. The reason for this is simple: the people who regularly use field guides in the field are typically comparatively new to birding, and are much more concerned about naming a species correctly in the first place than they are about the nuances of its taxonomic position.</p>
<p>Roger Tory Peterson knew this very well, and his plate of the White-throated Swift and Violet-green Swallow is a prime example. These birds aren&#8217;t closely related, of course, but for a new birder who sees them only briefly and possibly imperfectly they can be confusing, and Peterson wanted a direct comparison to facilitate separation. Once a new birder gains some ID experience, and can relinquish the security blanket of constant reference to a field guide, there&#8217;ll be plenty of time to look into the birds&#8217; actual taxonomy and evolution.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David J. Ringer		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506956</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David J. Ringer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506956</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Pete: Yikes. And not to mention Keas, which rip apart hapless shearwater chicks, tear pieces off cars, and feast on carrion. They&#039;re basal in the Psittaciformes, which makes the whole thing even more interesting. New Guinea&#039;s highly derived Pygmy Lorikeets, on the other hand, are even less raptorial than similarly sized wood-warblers in North America.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete: Yikes. And not to mention Keas, which rip apart hapless shearwater chicks, tear pieces off cars, and feast on carrion. They&#8217;re basal in the Psittaciformes, which makes the whole thing even more interesting. New Guinea&#8217;s highly derived Pygmy Lorikeets, on the other hand, are even less raptorial than similarly sized wood-warblers in North America.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506955</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506955</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rick, well, that&#039;s sort of my point but at a somewhat different scale.  There are still people with a pre-Darwinian view.  (He wrote some powerful stuff about it too!)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, well, that&#8217;s sort of my point but at a somewhat different scale.  There are still people with a pre-Darwinian view.  (He wrote some powerful stuff about it too!)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Pete Moulton		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506954</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pete Moulton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506954</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David @ 11: oh, parrots are still pretty raptorial. You ain&#039;t heard nothing until you&#039;ve heard my significant other&#039;s African Grey chew up a chicken drumstick!
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David @ 11: oh, parrots are still pretty raptorial. You ain&#8217;t heard nothing until you&#8217;ve heard my significant other&#8217;s African Grey chew up a chicken drumstick!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick Wright		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506953</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506953</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ted Floyd has thought this through and written some very powerful stuff about it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted Floyd has thought this through and written some very powerful stuff about it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick Wright		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506952</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506952</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The notion that there is such a thing as a species, understood as an identifiable fixity, is wrong. But without it, birders would have to be the most extreme of nominalists, unable to attach any label to an individual bird. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The notion that there is such a thing as a species, understood as an identifiable fixity, is wrong. But without it, birders would have to be the most extreme of nominalists, unable to attach any label to an individual bird. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;cathartid vultures were short-legged, short-billed storks. I remember thinking how cool that was, how much sense it made ... until it wasn&#039;t, and it didn&#039;t.&lt;/em&gt;

I had to throw out a whole lecture, dammit.  

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>cathartid vultures were short-legged, short-billed storks. I remember thinking how cool that was, how much sense it made &#8230; until it wasn&#8217;t, and it didn&#8217;t.</em></p>
<p>I had to throw out a whole lecture, dammit.  </p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506950</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506950</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rick what parts of the species concept are being misunderstood or misused by birders? 

&lt;em&gt;I&#039;ve gotta say, Greg, most birders I know, at least the halfway serious ones, pay WAY more attention to evolution than the general public.&lt;/em&gt;

Since we are both speaking from experience, we are both unreliable sources.  Personally, I have no idea. I do know that the word &quot;evolution&quot; does not appear in many places it should in the dozens of birder-oriented books on my shelf.  This may be a matter of what publishers are concerned with more than the actual birders&#039; view.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick what parts of the species concept are being misunderstood or misused by birders? </p>
<p><em>I&#8217;ve gotta say, Greg, most birders I know, at least the halfway serious ones, pay WAY more attention to evolution than the general public.</em></p>
<p>Since we are both speaking from experience, we are both unreliable sources.  Personally, I have no idea. I do know that the word &#8220;evolution&#8221; does not appear in many places it should in the dozens of birder-oriented books on my shelf.  This may be a matter of what publishers are concerned with more than the actual birders&#8217; view.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick Wright		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506949</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Wright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/08/11/birders-need-to-more-actively/#comment-506949</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If birders took the idea of evolution serious, it would be the end of our hobby. Birding as it&#039;s practiced today is utterly dependent on a species concept that has been outmoded since 1859; it&#039;s not about the arrangement of field guides, it&#039;s about whether the object of our hobby really exists at all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If birders took the idea of evolution serious, it would be the end of our hobby. Birding as it&#8217;s practiced today is utterly dependent on a species concept that has been outmoded since 1859; it&#8217;s not about the arrangement of field guides, it&#8217;s about whether the object of our hobby really exists at all.</p>
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