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	Comments on: Eyes, Brains and Latitude	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:38:16 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505868</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505868</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Henry, good question.  I think John Kappleman knows the answer to that. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry, good question.  I think John Kappleman knows the answer to that. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Henry Harpending		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505867</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Harpending]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 22:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505867</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What is the size of Neanderthal sockets?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the size of Neanderthal sockets?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505866</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505866</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[P Smith, that could be, but what you just described is a pretty typical example of evolution.  

In any event, you are right to be concerned with echoes of the Bell Curve.  I don&#039;t think that is what is going on here but you can be sure that any research pointing to human variation will be distorted and turned into &quot;evidence&quot; for the existence of races (even though they don&#039;t exist) and for racist thinking and policy.

Toto, I was thinking of that as well while reading about this research:  Actually, there are two things going on here at once:  Larger eyes and more visual processing go with nocturnal lifeways because of low light, but primate-style color vision and it&#039;s associated equipment goes with rainforest frugivory and, later, color-based social signalling.  

I think that the observation being made here is a very small scale fine tuning.

My personal null hypothesis is that brains are bigger in higher attitudes for thermal reasons and that for some reason we don&#039;t quite get eye size is closely linked to brain size (something developmental, not adaptive).

Always remember that there may be different levels of explanation at work: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/ultimate_causes_proximate_mech.php
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P Smith, that could be, but what you just described is a pretty typical example of evolution.  </p>
<p>In any event, you are right to be concerned with echoes of the Bell Curve.  I don&#8217;t think that is what is going on here but you can be sure that any research pointing to human variation will be distorted and turned into &#8220;evidence&#8221; for the existence of races (even though they don&#8217;t exist) and for racist thinking and policy.</p>
<p>Toto, I was thinking of that as well while reading about this research:  Actually, there are two things going on here at once:  Larger eyes and more visual processing go with nocturnal lifeways because of low light, but primate-style color vision and it&#8217;s associated equipment goes with rainforest frugivory and, later, color-based social signalling.  </p>
<p>I think that the observation being made here is a very small scale fine tuning.</p>
<p>My personal null hypothesis is that brains are bigger in higher attitudes for thermal reasons and that for some reason we don&#8217;t quite get eye size is closely linked to brain size (something developmental, not adaptive).</p>
<p>Always remember that there may be different levels of explanation at work: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/ultimate_causes_proximate_mech.php" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/ultimate_causes_proximate_mech.php</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: toto		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505865</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[toto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505865</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The visual areas of the brain are easily determined, including with non-invasive methods (e.g. MRI). I remember studies correlating the size of the primary visual area (V1) with various things.

So the good news is, the hypothesis that some populations have larger or smaller visual brain areas (as opposed to merely larger or smaller brains in general) can easily be tested.

There is an idea floating around that the main impetus for the initial impetus for brainification among &quot;higher&quot; primates was driven by the need for better visual abilities, as these ancestors switched from the nocturnal lifestyle of early primates to a diurnal lifestyle. Not sure what status this idea has among paleontologists.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The visual areas of the brain are easily determined, including with non-invasive methods (e.g. MRI). I remember studies correlating the size of the primary visual area (V1) with various things.</p>
<p>So the good news is, the hypothesis that some populations have larger or smaller visual brain areas (as opposed to merely larger or smaller brains in general) can easily be tested.</p>
<p>There is an idea floating around that the main impetus for the initial impetus for brainification among &#8220;higher&#8221; primates was driven by the need for better visual abilities, as these ancestors switched from the nocturnal lifestyle of early primates to a diurnal lifestyle. Not sure what status this idea has among paleontologists.</p>
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		<title>
		By: P Smith		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505864</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505864</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It sounds like a load of codswallop, like something out of &lt;i&gt;&quot;The Bell Curve&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.  I&#039;m not a biologist, but I doubt humans have been around long enough for such evolution to occur or be significant enough to measure.

Here&#039;s a better explanation: In the small subgroup of humans which reached the Urals and Caucuses before moving west and east, the small percentage which already had larger eye sockets survived better than those with smaller ones, whether by happenstance, accident or survival of the best adapted.  It was because they survived that larger eyes became predominant, not the other way around.  As for larger brains, larger sockets require larger skulls and the brain just filled in the space rather than having the brain slosh around in a cavity.

It&#039;s likely no more relevant than brunette/blonde/redheads all coming from Europe - again, it sounds like something out of &quot;The Bell Curve&quot;.

.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like a load of codswallop, like something out of <i>&#8220;The Bell Curve&#8221;</i>.  I&#8217;m not a biologist, but I doubt humans have been around long enough for such evolution to occur or be significant enough to measure.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a better explanation: In the small subgroup of humans which reached the Urals and Caucuses before moving west and east, the small percentage which already had larger eye sockets survived better than those with smaller ones, whether by happenstance, accident or survival of the best adapted.  It was because they survived that larger eyes became predominant, not the other way around.  As for larger brains, larger sockets require larger skulls and the brain just filled in the space rather than having the brain slosh around in a cavity.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s likely no more relevant than brunette/blonde/redheads all coming from Europe &#8211; again, it sounds like something out of &#8220;The Bell Curve&#8221;.</p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Vince whirlwind		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505863</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vince whirlwind]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 00:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505863</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;But it turns out that this is not because they are smarter, but because they need bigger vision areas in the brain &quot;
 
Complete non-sequitur. PC strikes again.
 
The fact better vision has been selected for, resulting in bigger brains says nothing about the extra smarts conferred by bigger brains, as implied by this loopy PR.
 
Anyway, the stupidity caused by proximity to the equator must be largely environmental - the USA is only recently densely populated and just look at the voting patterns North v. South.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But it turns out that this is not because they are smarter, but because they need bigger vision areas in the brain &#8221;</p>
<p>Complete non-sequitur. PC strikes again.</p>
<p>The fact better vision has been selected for, resulting in bigger brains says nothing about the extra smarts conferred by bigger brains, as implied by this loopy PR.</p>
<p>Anyway, the stupidity caused by proximity to the equator must be largely environmental &#8211; the USA is only recently densely populated and just look at the voting patterns North v. South.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Remo		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505862</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Remo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505862</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d reverse the logic.  I doubt that there is much selective pressure in favor of larger eye sockets to deal with dimmer light, but instead a selective pressure to limit the size of the eye socket at lower latitudes to deal with the bright sun. With that selective pressure removed, you are allowed a random walk towards larger eye sockets.

(Why else would we invent sun glasses?  Northern europeans have a tough time with the bright light of the tropics.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d reverse the logic.  I doubt that there is much selective pressure in favor of larger eye sockets to deal with dimmer light, but instead a selective pressure to limit the size of the eye socket at lower latitudes to deal with the bright sun. With that selective pressure removed, you are allowed a random walk towards larger eye sockets.</p>
<p>(Why else would we invent sun glasses?  Northern europeans have a tough time with the bright light of the tropics.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nicol		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505861</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/27/eyes-brains-and-latitude/#comment-505861</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m from the south, and now live in the grand, light-less state of Washington, so I personally would be interested in any recent correlation of shrinking in the visual part of the brain for those of us who are of North European heritage, but were raised in a sunny place. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m from the south, and now live in the grand, light-less state of Washington, so I personally would be interested in any recent correlation of shrinking in the visual part of the brain for those of us who are of North European heritage, but were raised in a sunny place. </p>
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