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	Comments on: Which is right: &#8216;In your face&#8217; or staid professionalism?	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Mike McRae		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502991</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike McRae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 06:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502991</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What I find interesting from the conversation between Stephanie and I was the amount of influence the conceptual division between &#039;accommodationism&#039; and &#039;New Atheism&#039; has had. The number of people who continue to presume my position simply on grounds of the fact that I might criticise and question the actions of atheists who others might define as confrontational is astonishing. I must be &#039;accommodationist&#039;, and therefore my beliefs and motivations easily taken for granted.

In this thread, there are several &#039;accommodationists believe...&#039; claims which risk &#039;no true Scotsman&#039; fallacies. I&#039;m quite sure there are some who do believe such things, but having been personally accused of such beliefs, I don&#039;t think these conclusions are useful.

I also like &#039;atheist&#039; and &#039;anti-theist&#039;, although I wonder how long it will take for such terms to also become loaded with connotations and assumptions.

I might add that I share Desiree&#039;s view of the difference between objectives and goals. I think objectives work best as the visible component of a goal - the actual thing you expect to see change as a result of your action. Goals, on the other hand, can describe a more general achievement. I might have an objective to convince you not to vote for the God Party at the next election, for instance, but my goal is to prevent religious groups from holding power. 
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find interesting from the conversation between Stephanie and I was the amount of influence the conceptual division between &#8216;accommodationism&#8217; and &#8216;New Atheism&#8217; has had. The number of people who continue to presume my position simply on grounds of the fact that I might criticise and question the actions of atheists who others might define as confrontational is astonishing. I must be &#8216;accommodationist&#8217;, and therefore my beliefs and motivations easily taken for granted.</p>
<p>In this thread, there are several &#8216;accommodationists believe&#8230;&#8217; claims which risk &#8216;no true Scotsman&#8217; fallacies. I&#8217;m quite sure there are some who do believe such things, but having been personally accused of such beliefs, I don&#8217;t think these conclusions are useful.</p>
<p>I also like &#8216;atheist&#8217; and &#8216;anti-theist&#8217;, although I wonder how long it will take for such terms to also become loaded with connotations and assumptions.</p>
<p>I might add that I share Desiree&#8217;s view of the difference between objectives and goals. I think objectives work best as the visible component of a goal &#8211; the actual thing you expect to see change as a result of your action. Goals, on the other hand, can describe a more general achievement. I might have an objective to convince you not to vote for the God Party at the next election, for instance, but my goal is to prevent religious groups from holding power. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Domestigoth		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502990</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Domestigoth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 21:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502990</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I very much like the way you&#039;ve chosen to differentiate &quot;atheist&quot; from &quot;anti-theist&quot;.  I&#039;ve always found terms like &quot;New Atheist&quot; and &quot;accomodationist&quot; to be full of etymological inaccuracies: they&#039;re loaded terms, and they imply things that aren&#039;t necessarily true.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much like the way you&#8217;ve chosen to differentiate &#8220;atheist&#8221; from &#8220;anti-theist&#8221;.  I&#8217;ve always found terms like &#8220;New Atheist&#8221; and &#8220;accomodationist&#8221; to be full of etymological inaccuracies: they&#8217;re loaded terms, and they imply things that aren&#8217;t necessarily true.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Alan		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502989</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 16:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502989</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Go the Hitchen&#039;s route; systematic, well research, AND in your face.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go the Hitchen&#8217;s route; systematic, well research, AND in your face.</p>
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		By: Drivebyposter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502988</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drivebyposter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 02:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502988</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[DavidB:
Your response is essentially 
&quot;herpa derpa derpa derp!!!! Yay creationism! WOO FOR STUPID&quot;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DavidB:<br />
Your response is essentially<br />
&#8220;herpa derpa derpa derp!!!! Yay creationism! WOO FOR STUPID&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: DavidB		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502987</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DavidB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 01:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502987</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg writes: &quot;Say I pose the question on the Internet: &quot;What do you do, if you&#039;re a high school biology teacher, and a student shows up with Young Earth Creationist literature and tries to argue with you about evolution&quot;? I&#039;ve done that a few times, and when I do, I get all sorts of interesting answers. The answers include things like assigning the student a project in which they must face the evidence for evolution dead on.&quot;

Read:

DELETED for violation of commenting policy (see &quot;About&quot; page)

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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg writes: &#8220;Say I pose the question on the Internet: &#8220;What do you do, if you&#8217;re a high school biology teacher, and a student shows up with Young Earth Creationist literature and tries to argue with you about evolution&#8221;? I&#8217;ve done that a few times, and when I do, I get all sorts of interesting answers. The answers include things like assigning the student a project in which they must face the evidence for evolution dead on.&#8221;</p>
<p>Read:</p>
<p>DELETED for violation of commenting policy (see &#8220;About&#8221; page)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Haubrich		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502986</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Haubrich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 00:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502986</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;To call an atheist an &quot;accommodationist&quot; only because he or she isn&#039;t an anti-theist is to assume that all atheists should be anti-theists. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sometimes I wonder if we are all separated by a common language.

No, this is very simple. The accommodationists are saying that religion and science can be compatible because there are scientists who are also religious, and that the atheists should not insist that science and religion are incompatible because it might scare away those who would otherwise like evolution.

The new atheists say it is condescending and dishonest to avoid the implications for religion of science.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>To call an atheist an &#8220;accommodationist&#8221; only because he or she isn&#8217;t an anti-theist is to assume that all atheists should be anti-theists. </p></blockquote>
<p>Sometimes I wonder if we are all separated by a common language.</p>
<p>No, this is very simple. The accommodationists are saying that religion and science can be compatible because there are scientists who are also religious, and that the atheists should not insist that science and religion are incompatible because it might scare away those who would otherwise like evolution.</p>
<p>The new atheists say it is condescending and dishonest to avoid the implications for religion of science.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502985</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 22:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502985</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Greg Laden in #10: Perhaps, I don&#039;t want to get into a dictionary argument. But I doubt you&#039;d disagree that atheists need to do a lot less to be labeled &quot;extreme&quot; than (say) a Christian.

I think part of the discussion, actually, is trying to control or decide where the &quot;reasonable&quot; part of the spectrum is. New Atheists think it excludes Christians (at least on this topic). Christians naturally object.

Accommodationists thinks the &quot;reasonable&quot; part of the spectrum &lt;em&gt;includes&lt;/em&gt; Christians (even though Christianity apparently isn&#039;t reasonable enough for them to be one), and therefore must exclude New Atheists. New Atheists naturally object.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg Laden in #10: Perhaps, I don&#8217;t want to get into a dictionary argument. But I doubt you&#8217;d disagree that atheists need to do a lot less to be labeled &#8220;extreme&#8221; than (say) a Christian.</p>
<p>I think part of the discussion, actually, is trying to control or decide where the &#8220;reasonable&#8221; part of the spectrum is. New Atheists think it excludes Christians (at least on this topic). Christians naturally object.</p>
<p>Accommodationists thinks the &#8220;reasonable&#8221; part of the spectrum <em>includes</em> Christians (even though Christianity apparently isn&#8217;t reasonable enough for them to be one), and therefore must exclude New Atheists. New Atheists naturally object.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave W.		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502984</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 18:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502984</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bob Carroll @11 wrote, &#039;To call an atheist an &quot;accommodationist&quot; only because he or she isn&#039;t an anti-theist is to assume that all atheists should be anti-theists.&#039;

Does anyone call anyone else an &quot;accommodationist&quot; for that reason?  Once again, the word &quot;only&quot; seems to be employed inappropriately.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Carroll @11 wrote, &#8216;To call an atheist an &#8220;accommodationist&#8221; only because he or she isn&#8217;t an anti-theist is to assume that all atheists should be anti-theists.&#8217;</p>
<p>Does anyone call anyone else an &#8220;accommodationist&#8221; for that reason?  Once again, the word &#8220;only&#8221; seems to be employed inappropriately.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502983</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 17:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502983</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bob, when religion is confined to one day a year and has all the political power of the Easter Bunny, what you said might be equivalent to the current situation with religion. Religion has political power, and it claims that power on the basis of being a true religion. As it stands now, anti-theism is a political fight against religious privilege in modern life, not a campaign to wipe out something cute and silly.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, when religion is confined to one day a year and has all the political power of the Easter Bunny, what you said might be equivalent to the current situation with religion. Religion has political power, and it claims that power on the basis of being a true religion. As it stands now, anti-theism is a political fight against religious privilege in modern life, not a campaign to wipe out something cute and silly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave W.		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502982</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 16:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/05/14/which-is-right-in-your-face-or/#comment-502982</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg Laden wrote @9 wrote, &#039;Dave W, refer to the links and see you you agree with me (or not) that there is a somewhat polarized argument between &quot;new atheists&quot; and &quot;accommodationists.&quot;&#039;

I&#039;d have to disagree, from reading the &quot;New Atheists&quot; and the &quot;accommodationists&quot; themselves.  The &quot;New Atheists&quot; argue that, as you once wrote, &quot;Multiple strategies work better than single narrowly defined strategies.&quot;  The &quot;accomodationists&quot; tell the &quot;New Atheists&quot; to shut up because they&#039;re hurting &quot;the cause&quot; (they really mean &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; cause, not the &quot;New Atheists&#039;&quot; cause).  That&#039;s not polarized, it&#039;s confused.

If any &quot;New Athiest&quot; has said anything like &quot;our way is the &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; way&quot; (keyword &quot;only,&quot; which is how you characterized it in your OP), I&#039;d be amazed.  (I&#039;d be similarly amazed if any &quot;accommodationist&quot; would be generous enough to describe the &quot;New Atheist&quot; position correctly and judge them by it, instead of by some other standard.)

Also, describing the two groups as being at opposing ends of a spectrum is just strange, unless the spectrum is so simplistic as to be &quot;how much the &#039;New Atheists&#039; are harming the cause of science education.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Laden wrote @9 wrote, &#8216;Dave W, refer to the links and see you you agree with me (or not) that there is a somewhat polarized argument between &#8220;new atheists&#8221; and &#8220;accommodationists.&#8221;&#8216;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d have to disagree, from reading the &#8220;New Atheists&#8221; and the &#8220;accommodationists&#8221; themselves.  The &#8220;New Atheists&#8221; argue that, as you once wrote, &#8220;Multiple strategies work better than single narrowly defined strategies.&#8221;  The &#8220;accomodationists&#8221; tell the &#8220;New Atheists&#8221; to shut up because they&#8217;re hurting &#8220;the cause&#8221; (they really mean <i>their</i> cause, not the &#8220;New Atheists'&#8221; cause).  That&#8217;s not polarized, it&#8217;s confused.</p>
<p>If any &#8220;New Athiest&#8221; has said anything like &#8220;our way is the <i>only</i> way&#8221; (keyword &#8220;only,&#8221; which is how you characterized it in your OP), I&#8217;d be amazed.  (I&#8217;d be similarly amazed if any &#8220;accommodationist&#8221; would be generous enough to describe the &#8220;New Atheist&#8221; position correctly and judge them by it, instead of by some other standard.)</p>
<p>Also, describing the two groups as being at opposing ends of a spectrum is just strange, unless the spectrum is so simplistic as to be &#8220;how much the &#8216;New Atheists&#8217; are harming the cause of science education.&#8221;</p>
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