<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss"
	xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: The Crack at Fukushima Reactor 3, and other matters	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:05:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.6</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Phillip IV		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501266</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phillip IV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501266</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Giliell @ #22:

&lt;blockquote&gt;That last part leaves me clueless. Do they think the meltdown has stopped? Because even I know that there cannot be an &quot;unmeltdown&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s really just supposed to sound mollifying - technically, &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; meltdown is &#039;temporary&#039;: the fission will only continue until all of the available fuel is used up. They suspect that the meltdown is only partial, i.e. that only part of the fuel in the reactor is affected (either because the rods have partially lost their cladding, or parts of the fuel rods have broke off and collected at the bottom of the containment vessel), so fission will cease once that amount of fuel is spent - but since there seems to no idea what amount were actually talking about, it&#039;s really more or less a complete non-statement. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giliell @ #22:</p>
<blockquote><p>That last part leaves me clueless. Do they think the meltdown has stopped? Because even I know that there cannot be an &#8220;unmeltdown&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s really just supposed to sound mollifying &#8211; technically, <i>any</i> meltdown is &#8216;temporary&#8217;: the fission will only continue until all of the available fuel is used up. They suspect that the meltdown is only partial, i.e. that only part of the fuel in the reactor is affected (either because the rods have partially lost their cladding, or parts of the fuel rods have broke off and collected at the bottom of the containment vessel), so fission will cease once that amount of fuel is spent &#8211; but since there seems to no idea what amount were actually talking about, it&#8217;s really more or less a complete non-statement. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Giliell		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Giliell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OK, I just got this from the German news which means it has probably been translated  times already, so could someone with more information please either confirm this nonsense for me, or tell me what they said or probably meant? According to the tagesschau, Edano said that the Japanese Government assumes there might have been a partial meltdown (OK, so far I get it), but that they also think that this is only temporarily.
That last part leaves me clueless. Do they think the meltdown has stopped? Because even I know that there cannot be an &quot;unmeltdown&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I just got this from the German news which means it has probably been translated  times already, so could someone with more information please either confirm this nonsense for me, or tell me what they said or probably meant? According to the tagesschau, Edano said that the Japanese Government assumes there might have been a partial meltdown (OK, so far I get it), but that they also think that this is only temporarily.<br />
That last part leaves me clueless. Do they think the meltdown has stopped? Because even I know that there cannot be an &#8220;unmeltdown&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Adela		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adela]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[These things are built in layers and I doubt the witness stuck his head inside the reactor chamber to view the inner containment vessel. An outside crack may or not continue on as an inside crack. They need to get the instrumentation working fully to know for sure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These things are built in layers and I doubt the witness stuck his head inside the reactor chamber to view the inner containment vessel. An outside crack may or not continue on as an inside crack. They need to get the instrumentation working fully to know for sure.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501263</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501263</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Omega, the evidence for the crack, and the only evidence for a crack that I know of, as stated in the OP, is some guy who reportedly said &quot;I saw this big crack&quot; and described it somewhat.

I may well be that the final net harm other than injury to the plant workers will be land set off limits for a period of time, plus a zillion dollars in cleanup costs. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omega, the evidence for the crack, and the only evidence for a crack that I know of, as stated in the OP, is some guy who reportedly said &#8220;I saw this big crack&#8221; and described it somewhat.</p>
<p>I may well be that the final net harm other than injury to the plant workers will be land set off limits for a period of time, plus a zillion dollars in cleanup costs. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: phillydoug		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501262</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[phillydoug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501262</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Omega Centauri: &quot;Given the huge volume represented by the ocean, it should dilute fairly quickly there.&quot;
 
One of the favorable assumtions that seems implied in these conversations, and one that never ceases to frustrate me, is that the radioactive materials will disperse evenly though whatever medium they are introduced to. 

&#039;On average&#039; sounds nice-- but there is no reason to think the average levels of any isotope in any quantity of water is a meaningful metric. That&#039;s just not how things mix, flow and disperse in nature. Both in the air and in water, materials move in &#039;plumes&#039;, remainingly suprisingly concentrated because of differences in temperature, salinity, and so forth.

An example is the Amazon river--
 
&#039;The river pushes a vast plume of freshwater into the ocean. The plume is about 400 kilometres (250 mi) long and between 100 and 200 kilometres (62 and 120 mi) wide. The freshwater, being lighter, overrides the salty ocean, diluting the salinity and altering the color of the ocean surface over an area up to 1,000,000 square miles (2,600,000 km2) large. For centuries ships have reported freshwater near the Amazon&#039;s mouth yet well out of sight of land in what otherwise seemed to be the open ocean.&#039;

(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_River)
(see also: http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/amazon-river-plume-spied-by-satellite--0519/)

The mechanics of how these materials disperse in the environment will not be an average of readings taken at various locations; they will travel in plumes, and settle into areas of greater and lesser concentration (local &#039;hot&#039; and &#039;cool&#039; spots) Why? Becasue any time substances come into contact and mix in nature, that&#039;s how they operate. Accordingly, we can expect that the massive discharge will remain a fairly cohesive mass, traveling as a plume according to the primary currents around Japan&#039;s eastern shore:

(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroshio_Current)

&quot;Satellite images of the Kuroshio Current illustrates how the current path meanders and forms isolated rings or eddies on the order of 100â??300 km. Eddies retain their unique form for several months and have their own biological characteristics that depend on where they form. If the eddies are formed between the current and coastline of Japan, they may impinge on the continental shelf and their high kinetic energy has the effect of drawing large volumes of water off the shelf on one side of the ring, while adding water to the other side. Eddies size and strength decline with distance from major ocean currents. The amount of energy decreases from the rings associated with the major currents and down to eddies remote from those currents.&quot;

Note on the map (if you follow the link) of the southward current closer to shore, with the northward current further in the Pacific, and fairly large circular currents just east of the area that includes both Fukushima and Tokyo.

The assumption of &#039;dilution to harmless levels&#039; because the Pacific is really really big, and the radioactive materials will behave nicely and spread evenly, is wishful thinking. Similarly, the idea that concentrations will diminish in an even way over greater distances presupposes that &#039;average dispersal rates&#039; are of any use in the real world. They&#039;re not. Some places will find much lower levels of radioctivity, others much higher. You don&#039;t want to be in the places that are much higher, and they are going to be found much further from Daiichi than would be predicted by averaging. 


OC: &quot;At this point the metric of harm is going to be how much land ends up off limits. The goal at this point (aside from worker safety) should be to minimize that.&quot;

Omega, with all due respect, the metric of harm remains what it always has been-- how many people become seriously ill, how many suffer and die, how many children are born with birth defects, and how many people&#039;s lives are simply destroyed because they can never return home. There&#039;s an abstraction in talking about &#039;land off limits&#039; that borders on callousness. 

How many people would you estimate-- as we see things today-- are going to die because of the radiactive material already introduced into the environment? If you claim just a few of the workers at the plant, you&#039;re simply not acknowledging what&#039;s been happening.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Omega Centauri: &#8220;Given the huge volume represented by the ocean, it should dilute fairly quickly there.&#8221;</p>
<p>One of the favorable assumtions that seems implied in these conversations, and one that never ceases to frustrate me, is that the radioactive materials will disperse evenly though whatever medium they are introduced to. </p>
<p>&#8216;On average&#8217; sounds nice&#8211; but there is no reason to think the average levels of any isotope in any quantity of water is a meaningful metric. That&#8217;s just not how things mix, flow and disperse in nature. Both in the air and in water, materials move in &#8216;plumes&#8217;, remainingly suprisingly concentrated because of differences in temperature, salinity, and so forth.</p>
<p>An example is the Amazon river&#8211;</p>
<p>&#8216;The river pushes a vast plume of freshwater into the ocean. The plume is about 400 kilometres (250 mi) long and between 100 and 200 kilometres (62 and 120 mi) wide. The freshwater, being lighter, overrides the salty ocean, diluting the salinity and altering the color of the ocean surface over an area up to 1,000,000 square miles (2,600,000 km2) large. For centuries ships have reported freshwater near the Amazon&#8217;s mouth yet well out of sight of land in what otherwise seemed to be the open ocean.&#8217;</p>
<p>(from: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_River" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_River</a>)<br />
(see also: <a href="http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/amazon-river-plume-spied-by-satellite--0519/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ouramazingplanet.com/amazon-river-plume-spied-by-satellite&#8211;0519/</a>)</p>
<p>The mechanics of how these materials disperse in the environment will not be an average of readings taken at various locations; they will travel in plumes, and settle into areas of greater and lesser concentration (local &#8216;hot&#8217; and &#8216;cool&#8217; spots) Why? Becasue any time substances come into contact and mix in nature, that&#8217;s how they operate. Accordingly, we can expect that the massive discharge will remain a fairly cohesive mass, traveling as a plume according to the primary currents around Japan&#8217;s eastern shore:</p>
<p>(from: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroshio_Current" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroshio_Current</a>)</p>
<p>&#8220;Satellite images of the Kuroshio Current illustrates how the current path meanders and forms isolated rings or eddies on the order of 100â??300 km. Eddies retain their unique form for several months and have their own biological characteristics that depend on where they form. If the eddies are formed between the current and coastline of Japan, they may impinge on the continental shelf and their high kinetic energy has the effect of drawing large volumes of water off the shelf on one side of the ring, while adding water to the other side. Eddies size and strength decline with distance from major ocean currents. The amount of energy decreases from the rings associated with the major currents and down to eddies remote from those currents.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note on the map (if you follow the link) of the southward current closer to shore, with the northward current further in the Pacific, and fairly large circular currents just east of the area that includes both Fukushima and Tokyo.</p>
<p>The assumption of &#8216;dilution to harmless levels&#8217; because the Pacific is really really big, and the radioactive materials will behave nicely and spread evenly, is wishful thinking. Similarly, the idea that concentrations will diminish in an even way over greater distances presupposes that &#8216;average dispersal rates&#8217; are of any use in the real world. They&#8217;re not. Some places will find much lower levels of radioctivity, others much higher. You don&#8217;t want to be in the places that are much higher, and they are going to be found much further from Daiichi than would be predicted by averaging. </p>
<p>OC: &#8220;At this point the metric of harm is going to be how much land ends up off limits. The goal at this point (aside from worker safety) should be to minimize that.&#8221;</p>
<p>Omega, with all due respect, the metric of harm remains what it always has been&#8211; how many people become seriously ill, how many suffer and die, how many children are born with birth defects, and how many people&#8217;s lives are simply destroyed because they can never return home. There&#8217;s an abstraction in talking about &#8216;land off limits&#8217; that borders on callousness. </p>
<p>How many people would you estimate&#8211; as we see things today&#8211; are going to die because of the radiactive material already introduced into the environment? If you claim just a few of the workers at the plant, you&#8217;re simply not acknowledging what&#8217;s been happening.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Alex Mac		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501261</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alex Mac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501261</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s XKCD, but still:

http://www.xkcd.com/radiation]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s XKCD, but still:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.xkcd.com/radiation" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.xkcd.com/radiation</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Omega Centauri		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501260</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Omega Centauri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501260</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[  Isn&#039;t the evidence not of a crack, but of a leak. A leak could be something other than a crack. Most likely one or more pipes that are attached to the vessel, as these would be much more vulnerable to damge than the vessel itself. Hot brine can make a mess out of metal, and it has been present for several days. Supposedly with fresh water flushing, the salt content should be dropping, but it sounds like the damage has already been done. I think the only thing to do at this time, is to keep pumping water through the reactors and spent fuel pools. To the extent that the waste water can be collected and stored, it should be. Otherwise it runs into the ocean. Given the huge volume represented by the ocean, it should dilute fairly quickly there. At this point the metric of harm is going to be how much land ends up off limits. The goal at this point (aside from worker safety) should be to minimize that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Isn&#8217;t the evidence not of a crack, but of a leak. A leak could be something other than a crack. Most likely one or more pipes that are attached to the vessel, as these would be much more vulnerable to damge than the vessel itself. Hot brine can make a mess out of metal, and it has been present for several days. Supposedly with fresh water flushing, the salt content should be dropping, but it sounds like the damage has already been done. I think the only thing to do at this time, is to keep pumping water through the reactors and spent fuel pools. To the extent that the waste water can be collected and stored, it should be. Otherwise it runs into the ocean. Given the huge volume represented by the ocean, it should dilute fairly quickly there. At this point the metric of harm is going to be how much land ends up off limits. The goal at this point (aside from worker safety) should be to minimize that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501259</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501259</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Info on spike updated:  http://tinyurl.com/4lrzmo8

The crack remains a mystery. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Info on spike updated:  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4lrzmo8" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tinyurl.com/4lrzmo8</a></p>
<p>The crack remains a mystery. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: SoulmanZ		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501258</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SoulmanZ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501258</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Phil - for the Bequerel readings:

The dose given therapeutically to kill the thyroid dead is 550MBq of I-131. You are not meant to sleep next to anyone after that treatment for weeks if not months.

The dose in the liquid in reactor 2 is 13 MBq/ml of I-131 and 2900 MBq/ml of I-134. These things are hard to work out directly as a dose to the patient, but I suspect more than a sip would be very dangerous. 

For the workers there, the radiation in the water is multiples higher than in reactor 3, where the workers got very high doses and were hospitalised. Of course, they were hospitalised because they werent wearing waterproof shoes, and got radioactive stuff all over their feet ... so maybe that isnt the most reasonable context!

More concerningly I-134 has a half life of 52 minutes, so unless some other fission product is decaying into it in a big way, it may mean fission is occuring in the damaged fuel rods]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil &#8211; for the Bequerel readings:</p>
<p>The dose given therapeutically to kill the thyroid dead is 550MBq of I-131. You are not meant to sleep next to anyone after that treatment for weeks if not months.</p>
<p>The dose in the liquid in reactor 2 is 13 MBq/ml of I-131 and 2900 MBq/ml of I-134. These things are hard to work out directly as a dose to the patient, but I suspect more than a sip would be very dangerous. </p>
<p>For the workers there, the radiation in the water is multiples higher than in reactor 3, where the workers got very high doses and were hospitalised. Of course, they were hospitalised because they werent wearing waterproof shoes, and got radioactive stuff all over their feet &#8230; so maybe that isnt the most reasonable context!</p>
<p>More concerningly I-134 has a half life of 52 minutes, so unless some other fission product is decaying into it in a big way, it may mean fission is occuring in the damaged fuel rods</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: jeremy		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501257</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/26/the-crack-at-fukushima-reactor/#comment-501257</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OK, re-read the post and can appreciate your frustration for lack of facts too.  I&#039;m in central Tokyo and a little tense.  Reading enough conspiracy theories to last me a lifetime.  And can someone *please* stop the &quot;pray for Japan&quot; meme...just send some bottled water for *&amp;!% sake!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, re-read the post and can appreciate your frustration for lack of facts too.  I&#8217;m in central Tokyo and a little tense.  Reading enough conspiracy theories to last me a lifetime.  And can someone *please* stop the &#8220;pray for Japan&#8221; meme&#8230;just send some bottled water for *&#038;!% sake!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
