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	Comments on: It&#8217;s done.  No more public employee collective bargaining in Wisconsin	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/</link>
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		<title>
		By: lu		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500317</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 03:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500317</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I HOPE THEY PASS THE SAME IN NEW JERSEY, WHY WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR BENEFITS? WHEN YOU GO TO A PUBLIC OFFICE AND THEY TREAT YOU LIKE 8&amp;^&amp;*** IF WE SUFFER THEY HAVE TO SUFFER TOO SINCE WE PAY THEIR F..SALARIES THATS THE TYPE OF GOVERNMENT WE NEED IN NEW JERSEY]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I HOPE THEY PASS THE SAME IN NEW JERSEY, WHY WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR BENEFITS? WHEN YOU GO TO A PUBLIC OFFICE AND THEY TREAT YOU LIKE 8&#038;^&#038;*** IF WE SUFFER THEY HAVE TO SUFFER TOO SINCE WE PAY THEIR F..SALARIES THATS THE TYPE OF GOVERNMENT WE NEED IN NEW JERSEY</p>
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		<title>
		By: -		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500316</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[-]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500316</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Can you undo that?&quot;
pass a repeal bill (similar to &quot;we must repeal healthcare!&quot;) in jan 2012.

btw, the stripped out budget is still not passed... if foiling quorum for a budget bill was a &#039;bargaining chip&#039; before mar11, why isn&#039;t foiling forum for a budget bill not still a &#039;bargaining chip&#039;?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Can you undo that?&#8221;<br />
pass a repeal bill (similar to &#8220;we must repeal healthcare!&#8221;) in jan 2012.</p>
<p>btw, the stripped out budget is still not passed&#8230; if foiling quorum for a budget bill was a &#8216;bargaining chip&#8217; before mar11, why isn&#8217;t foiling forum for a budget bill not still a &#8216;bargaining chip&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500315</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500315</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One more, and then I promise I&#039;ll shut up and not feed the trolls any more.

Igor: So if North Korea is state capitalism, and South Korea is real capitalism...what does that make China? If they&#039;re &quot;real&quot; capitalism, and of course &quot;real&quot; capitalism always engenders the freest societies possible...would you move there? I know I wouldn&#039;t. But if they&#039;re &quot;state&quot; capitalism, with its inevitable market failure, pray tell me: Why are they eating our economic lunch?

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more, and then I promise I&#8217;ll shut up and not feed the trolls any more.</p>
<p>Igor: So if North Korea is state capitalism, and South Korea is real capitalism&#8230;what does that make China? If they&#8217;re &#8220;real&#8221; capitalism, and of course &#8220;real&#8221; capitalism always engenders the freest societies possible&#8230;would you move there? I know I wouldn&#8217;t. But if they&#8217;re &#8220;state&#8221; capitalism, with its inevitable market failure, pray tell me: Why are they eating our economic lunch?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500314</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500314</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Woop, sorry, &quot;life&quot; lost. RIP Robert Fassnacht; at least your murder pulled the rug out from under the thugs advocating violence as a solution to society&#039;s problems. Damn you, Armstrong brothers, for the decades of damage you did to our cause.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woop, sorry, &#8220;life&#8221; lost. RIP Robert Fassnacht; at least your murder pulled the rug out from under the thugs advocating violence as a solution to society&#8217;s problems. Damn you, Armstrong brothers, for the decades of damage you did to our cause.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500313</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500313</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Greg #14: Undo? No. Of course, you&#039;re right, the votes in the Assembly and Senate have been taken, and wishing them away won&#039;t magick them out of history.

But in all the decades I&#039;ve been in Madison, I have never seen anything like this. Even the Vietnam War protests (wasn&#039;t here, but my sister was) were as nothing in comparison -- violent, confrontational, and in the end (mostly) counterproductive, to say nothing of the lives lost when those murdering idiots bombed Sterling Hall.

To be on the Square in the past three weeks is to see something genuinely new -- it&#039;s the same &quot;we won&#039;t take it anymore&quot; frustration that drove the Tea Partiers, but this time its aim is better, and the numbers are staggering. I was having lunch with my wife on State Street yesterday when we noticed that the street was suddenly full, curb-to-curb, for blocks.

&quot;Out-of-state agitators&quot;? Union members?

No. It was hundreds and hundreds of &lt;i&gt;high school students&lt;/i&gt;, marching up to the Square. And that was just the contingent from Madison West, East High came in from the other side!

http://rickwayne.zenfolio.com/p438724726/h46c6aff#h46c6aff

Now, the iPod generation is famous for nothing if not its self-centered apathy. From what I&#039;ve seen in the past three weeks, that is a complete canard, and that&#039;s where my optimism comes from. Those kids are going to remember this. They were when history was made. Oh sure, some of them will bail, and many of them doubtless just thought this was more fun than classes. But if even one in a hundred stays engaged, we are already talking a serious movement here. Likewise the adults, this has galvanized them like nothing I&#039;ve ever seen. Everybody I talked to on the Square ends their conversations with &quot;And VOTE!&quot; Going by my circle of friends, neighbors, and coworkers, I&#039;d have to say they are directly involved and organized in get-out-the-vote efforts to a degree that&#039;s strikingly novel, even for such a do-gooder bunch of volunteer-happy busybodies.

We have no illusions about what we&#039;re up against, of course, in a post-Citizens-United world. And the commercials have been running nonstop. But a movement that can put 100,000 people in the street, nonviolently, and do it over an over, is the worst nightmare of the Karl Rove strategists of the world. 

And so far, at least, it hasn&#039;t been co-opted by any of the existing power structures, the way the Tea Partiers got so slickly folded into the GOP. Could still happen, of course, and it&#039;s probably inevitable to some degree. (Certainly isn&#039;t hurting the unions much!) Helps that, by and large, it&#039;s an educated crowd.

I&#039;m telling ya, this thing has legs. Amazingly, the bill&#039;s passage didn&#039;t drive people down, it re-energized them. I hate the tired use of war metaphor for every form of human endeavor, but Roosevelt&#039;s words after Pearl Harbor keep coming back to me: &quot;[They] have fired the first shot; we shall fire the last one.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg #14: Undo? No. Of course, you&#8217;re right, the votes in the Assembly and Senate have been taken, and wishing them away won&#8217;t magick them out of history.</p>
<p>But in all the decades I&#8217;ve been in Madison, I have never seen anything like this. Even the Vietnam War protests (wasn&#8217;t here, but my sister was) were as nothing in comparison &#8212; violent, confrontational, and in the end (mostly) counterproductive, to say nothing of the lives lost when those murdering idiots bombed Sterling Hall.</p>
<p>To be on the Square in the past three weeks is to see something genuinely new &#8212; it&#8217;s the same &#8220;we won&#8217;t take it anymore&#8221; frustration that drove the Tea Partiers, but this time its aim is better, and the numbers are staggering. I was having lunch with my wife on State Street yesterday when we noticed that the street was suddenly full, curb-to-curb, for blocks.</p>
<p>&#8220;Out-of-state agitators&#8221;? Union members?</p>
<p>No. It was hundreds and hundreds of <i>high school students</i>, marching up to the Square. And that was just the contingent from Madison West, East High came in from the other side!</p>
<p><a href="http://rickwayne.zenfolio.com/p438724726/h46c6aff#h46c6aff" rel="nofollow ugc">http://rickwayne.zenfolio.com/p438724726/h46c6aff#h46c6aff</a></p>
<p>Now, the iPod generation is famous for nothing if not its self-centered apathy. From what I&#8217;ve seen in the past three weeks, that is a complete canard, and that&#8217;s where my optimism comes from. Those kids are going to remember this. They were when history was made. Oh sure, some of them will bail, and many of them doubtless just thought this was more fun than classes. But if even one in a hundred stays engaged, we are already talking a serious movement here. Likewise the adults, this has galvanized them like nothing I&#8217;ve ever seen. Everybody I talked to on the Square ends their conversations with &#8220;And VOTE!&#8221; Going by my circle of friends, neighbors, and coworkers, I&#8217;d have to say they are directly involved and organized in get-out-the-vote efforts to a degree that&#8217;s strikingly novel, even for such a do-gooder bunch of volunteer-happy busybodies.</p>
<p>We have no illusions about what we&#8217;re up against, of course, in a post-Citizens-United world. And the commercials have been running nonstop. But a movement that can put 100,000 people in the street, nonviolently, and do it over an over, is the worst nightmare of the Karl Rove strategists of the world. </p>
<p>And so far, at least, it hasn&#8217;t been co-opted by any of the existing power structures, the way the Tea Partiers got so slickly folded into the GOP. Could still happen, of course, and it&#8217;s probably inevitable to some degree. (Certainly isn&#8217;t hurting the unions much!) Helps that, by and large, it&#8217;s an educated crowd.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m telling ya, this thing has legs. Amazingly, the bill&#8217;s passage didn&#8217;t drive people down, it re-energized them. I hate the tired use of war metaphor for every form of human endeavor, but Roosevelt&#8217;s words after Pearl Harbor keep coming back to me: &#8220;[They] have fired the first shot; we shall fire the last one.&#8221;</p>
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		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500312</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500312</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rick, sorry, but it&#039;s done. All they need now is the signature. 

Can you undo that?  I hope so. I admire your optimism.

I should mention, though, that none of this would have happened if the numbers and enthusiasm we see now was there in November.  Can we make sure that next couple/few elections have outcomes that actually represent the state?   

A recall would be spectacular. 

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, sorry, but it&#8217;s done. All they need now is the signature. </p>
<p>Can you undo that?  I hope so. I admire your optimism.</p>
<p>I should mention, though, that none of this would have happened if the numbers and enthusiasm we see now was there in November.  Can we make sure that next couple/few elections have outcomes that actually represent the state?   </p>
<p>A recall would be spectacular. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500311</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500311</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And, Greg: Headline fail, man. If you were down on the Square yesterday, you would see that this is &lt;i&gt;SO&lt;/i&gt; not over. They passed the bill, sure. But the only way they could get it done was by flagrantly illegal tactics. Hell, they were locking the Capitol Wednesday night by putting flex-ties on the door handles; the State Troopers have formally asked the state to indemnify their officers for the possibly illegal acts they&#039;ve been ordered to commit, and the Capitol Police basically washed their hands of locking people out of the Capitol. We&#039;ve got the rats out into the light now, and the recall petitions and the polls are showing solid support even out in the rural areas. I&#039;ll say this much for Governor Scooter: Nobody has energized and organized us this much since Nixon. First goalpost: April 5th state Supreme court elections. Next up: recalls!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, Greg: Headline fail, man. If you were down on the Square yesterday, you would see that this is <i>SO</i> not over. They passed the bill, sure. But the only way they could get it done was by flagrantly illegal tactics. Hell, they were locking the Capitol Wednesday night by putting flex-ties on the door handles; the State Troopers have formally asked the state to indemnify their officers for the possibly illegal acts they&#8217;ve been ordered to commit, and the Capitol Police basically washed their hands of locking people out of the Capitol. We&#8217;ve got the rats out into the light now, and the recall petitions and the polls are showing solid support even out in the rural areas. I&#8217;ll say this much for Governor Scooter: Nobody has energized and organized us this much since Nixon. First goalpost: April 5th state Supreme court elections. Next up: recalls!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500310</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500310</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So Igor, you think that the left has taken over the country? You mean I missed the revolution?

So you&#039;re telling me that now we have:
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; Public financing of elections, with a ban on corporate political ads
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; A clampdown on runaway DoD spending, with overseas bases closed and the war in Afghanistan terminated
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; Single-payer health care
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; Income and inheritance taxes as they were under Eisenhower
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; Massive investment in education instead of in weapons
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; The pernicious &quot;corporations are persons&quot; theory thrown into the wake of history, deservedly drowning
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; An economy where the bottom 50% of Americans own, oh, maybe 20% of the wealth, and a CEO makes 30 or 40 times what a worker does, instead of 350
 &lt;strong&gt;o&lt;/strong&gt; Real First Amendment rights, where U.S. congressman don&#039;t hold hearings demonizing your religion

How did I miss the headlines? Because if the left won, boyo, the country would look a lot different. Are you telling me that we&#039;re not sufficiently in thrall to Wall Street and the General Dynamics and Boeings of the world? That what we really need is to roll over for them &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt;, and it&#039;ll all be better?

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Igor, you think that the left has taken over the country? You mean I missed the revolution?</p>
<p>So you&#8217;re telling me that now we have:<br />
 <strong>o</strong> Public financing of elections, with a ban on corporate political ads<br />
 <strong>o</strong> A clampdown on runaway DoD spending, with overseas bases closed and the war in Afghanistan terminated<br />
 <strong>o</strong> Single-payer health care<br />
 <strong>o</strong> Income and inheritance taxes as they were under Eisenhower<br />
 <strong>o</strong> Massive investment in education instead of in weapons<br />
 <strong>o</strong> The pernicious &#8220;corporations are persons&#8221; theory thrown into the wake of history, deservedly drowning<br />
 <strong>o</strong> An economy where the bottom 50% of Americans own, oh, maybe 20% of the wealth, and a CEO makes 30 or 40 times what a worker does, instead of 350<br />
 <strong>o</strong> Real First Amendment rights, where U.S. congressman don&#8217;t hold hearings demonizing your religion</p>
<p>How did I miss the headlines? Because if the left won, boyo, the country would look a lot different. Are you telling me that we&#8217;re not sufficiently in thrall to Wall Street and the General Dynamics and Boeings of the world? That what we really need is to roll over for them <i>more</i>, and it&#8217;ll all be better?</p>
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		By: Lassi HippelÃ¤inen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500309</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lassi HippelÃ¤inen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500309</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wisconsin made GOD angry, and HE hit Japan with an earthquake.

You see, Allah wanted to zap Washington at the same time, and they both missed the target.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wisconsin made GOD angry, and HE hit Japan with an earthquake.</p>
<p>You see, Allah wanted to zap Washington at the same time, and they both missed the target.</p>
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		By: Joshua Zelinsky		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500308</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joshua Zelinsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/10/its-done-no-more-public-employ/#comment-500308</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I suspect that Igor is a troll. Unfortunately, even if he is a troll, attitudes like his are not uncommon. 

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that Igor is a troll. Unfortunately, even if he is a troll, attitudes like his are not uncommon. </p>
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