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	Comments on: Faith Healing Deaths in Oregon: New Law will Lift Protection of Religious Child Abusers	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499559</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499559</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doctor (?) Smart (?) @16:

Re evolving microorganisms:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;This is ADAPTATION, not evolution.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It occurs to me that you&#039;re not applying the biological understanding of these words. &lt;i&gt;Adaptation&lt;/i&gt; essentially means getting used to something â?? say you have a neighbor who wakes up at 4 AM every day. After a while you don&#039;t notice his movements any more, because you&#039;ve adapted.

Adaptation can be seen as a response of consciousness to a specific set of environmental conditions, but it is the bourn of consciousness. Rocks don&#039;t adapt to the ocean by turning into sand, after all.

Similarly, genes do not adapt. They mutate, change, drift, but they don&#039;t &quot;get used to&quot; anything. This minor variation in gene code is what drives the biological side of change in organisms. It&#039;s the environment that drives the selection side. The interaction of genetic change and environmental selection is the system known as evolution.

Bacteria and viruses are not adapting. They are evolving.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Birds are birds. Dinosaurs are dinosaurs. two COMPLETELY different animals altogether. One is warm blooded, one is cold blooded. One is a bird. One is a reptile. One has feathers. The other has scales.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually there&#039;s some pretty compelling evidence that dinosaurs were warm-blooded. They certainly were not reptiles.

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/dinosaurcontroversies/i/warmblooded_2.htm

There have been fossils found showing feathers associated with saurian forms, and the genetic link to dinosaurs and birds has actually been established:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/12/AR2007041202043.html

Do understand, too, that the time scales we&#039;re talking about are vast. Tens of millions of years is at least one million times the duration of all recorded human history. That&#039;s a lot of time in which small changes can add up to much larger ones.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Monkeys turned into humans? No one has explained why monkeys are still here then.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

For starters, no, monkeys did not turn into humans. Monkeys have tails. We&#039;re actually apes; apes don&#039;t have tails.

As for primate evolution, it&#039;s not a linear progression from less- to more-advanced. That is, there isn&#039;t a ladder being climbed by life, in some sort of &quot;progression&quot;, toward some kind of goal. So the primate evolutionary line does not look like this:

Gorilla &gt; chimpanzee &gt; human

...it looks more like this:

Common ancestor -&gt; Gorilla
                                  &#124;-&gt; Chimpanzee
                                  &#124;-&gt; Human

That is, at some point in the past - about 8 million years ago, as I recall - the apes that exist today split off from a common ancestor. Gorillas evolved along one line, chimps along a second, and humans along a third. This was a series of branches, as from a tree limb; you don&#039;t look at an apple blossom and ask why the tree still has leaves, do you? Similarly, the existence of other primates along with humans is not particularly surprising. It would be more surprising if things weren&#039;t the way they are, actually.

This is quite well-known and well-understood, so to say that &quot;no one has explained&quot; it is simply false.

It&#039;s also worth noting that chimp and human DNA is virtually identical.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;No one here can even offer to give me evidence of evolution.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve just offered several pieces of evidence. What I suspect you cannot do is refute them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Transitional fossils are a joke.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Do you mean that you don&#039;t think there are any such fossils, or that the transitional fossils which exist are somehow nonsense?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doctor (?) Smart (?) @16:</p>
<p>Re evolving microorganisms:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;This is ADAPTATION, not evolution.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It occurs to me that you&#8217;re not applying the biological understanding of these words. <i>Adaptation</i> essentially means getting used to something â?? say you have a neighbor who wakes up at 4 AM every day. After a while you don&#8217;t notice his movements any more, because you&#8217;ve adapted.</p>
<p>Adaptation can be seen as a response of consciousness to a specific set of environmental conditions, but it is the bourn of consciousness. Rocks don&#8217;t adapt to the ocean by turning into sand, after all.</p>
<p>Similarly, genes do not adapt. They mutate, change, drift, but they don&#8217;t &#8220;get used to&#8221; anything. This minor variation in gene code is what drives the biological side of change in organisms. It&#8217;s the environment that drives the selection side. The interaction of genetic change and environmental selection is the system known as evolution.</p>
<p>Bacteria and viruses are not adapting. They are evolving.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Birds are birds. Dinosaurs are dinosaurs. two COMPLETELY different animals altogether. One is warm blooded, one is cold blooded. One is a bird. One is a reptile. One has feathers. The other has scales.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually there&#8217;s some pretty compelling evidence that dinosaurs were warm-blooded. They certainly were not reptiles.</p>
<p><a href="http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/dinosaurcontroversies/i/warmblooded_2.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/dinosaurcontroversies/i/warmblooded_2.htm</a></p>
<p>There have been fossils found showing feathers associated with saurian forms, and the genetic link to dinosaurs and birds has actually been established:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/12/AR2007041202043.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/12/AR2007041202043.html</a></p>
<p>Do understand, too, that the time scales we&#8217;re talking about are vast. Tens of millions of years is at least one million times the duration of all recorded human history. That&#8217;s a lot of time in which small changes can add up to much larger ones.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Monkeys turned into humans? No one has explained why monkeys are still here then.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>For starters, no, monkeys did not turn into humans. Monkeys have tails. We&#8217;re actually apes; apes don&#8217;t have tails.</p>
<p>As for primate evolution, it&#8217;s not a linear progression from less- to more-advanced. That is, there isn&#8217;t a ladder being climbed by life, in some sort of &#8220;progression&#8221;, toward some kind of goal. So the primate evolutionary line does not look like this:</p>
<p>Gorilla > chimpanzee > human</p>
<p>&#8230;it looks more like this:</p>
<p>Common ancestor -> Gorilla<br />
                                  |-> Chimpanzee<br />
                                  |-> Human</p>
<p>That is, at some point in the past &#8211; about 8 million years ago, as I recall &#8211; the apes that exist today split off from a common ancestor. Gorillas evolved along one line, chimps along a second, and humans along a third. This was a series of branches, as from a tree limb; you don&#8217;t look at an apple blossom and ask why the tree still has leaves, do you? Similarly, the existence of other primates along with humans is not particularly surprising. It would be more surprising if things weren&#8217;t the way they are, actually.</p>
<p>This is quite well-known and well-understood, so to say that &#8220;no one has explained&#8221; it is simply false.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that chimp and human DNA is virtually identical.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;No one here can even offer to give me evidence of evolution.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve just offered several pieces of evidence. What I suspect you cannot do is refute them.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Transitional fossils are a joke.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Do you mean that you don&#8217;t think there are any such fossils, or that the transitional fossils which exist are somehow nonsense?</p>
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		<title>
		By: novalox		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499558</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[novalox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499558</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@16

Like I said before, your posts have been so horrifically bad and full of scientific misunderstanding (to put it mildly), I&#039;d suspect that you were a Poe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@16</p>
<p>Like I said before, your posts have been so horrifically bad and full of scientific misunderstanding (to put it mildly), I&#8217;d suspect that you were a Poe.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris From Europe		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499557</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris From Europe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Feb 2011 02:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499557</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doctor Smart, your &quot;arguments&quot; are a joke and I bet you know it. I say you&#039;re a poe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doctor Smart, your &#8220;arguments&#8221; are a joke and I bet you know it. I say you&#8217;re a poe.</p>
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		<title>
		By: gwen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499556</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gwen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499556</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ben Agag:Jehovahs Witnesses are also guilty of this - they let children die rather than lef them take blood.

Ben, actually, although they would LIKE to do that, they can&#039;t. If they truly need a transfusion, we get a court order that allows us to transfuse. There are judges assigned to be called in the middle of the night just for that reason. I have never heard of a judge refusing.

 Once they turn 18, it is a different issue. I have seen an 18 year old who had just given birth, and told she would die without a transfusion, refuse until she died in our ICU. There was nothing we could do about it. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Agag:Jehovahs Witnesses are also guilty of this &#8211; they let children die rather than lef them take blood.</p>
<p>Ben, actually, although they would LIKE to do that, they can&#8217;t. If they truly need a transfusion, we get a court order that allows us to transfuse. There are judges assigned to be called in the middle of the night just for that reason. I have never heard of a judge refusing.</p>
<p> Once they turn 18, it is a different issue. I have seen an 18 year old who had just given birth, and told she would die without a transfusion, refuse until she died in our ICU. There was nothing we could do about it. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499555</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499555</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doctor (?) Smart (?) @10:

If, as you say, evolution is not a fact, please explain how it is that bacteria are developing resistance to antibiotics, and how the seasonal flu changes from year to year.

Please provide arguments rooted in testable, verifiable processes. (&quot;Satan is making it happen&quot; or &quot;God is changing the bugs to test us&quot; do not constitute such an argument.)

While we&#039;re at it, please define your concept of &quot;opinion&quot; and show how that definition is different from your concept of &quot;fact&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doctor (?) Smart (?) @10:</p>
<p>If, as you say, evolution is not a fact, please explain how it is that bacteria are developing resistance to antibiotics, and how the seasonal flu changes from year to year.</p>
<p>Please provide arguments rooted in testable, verifiable processes. (&#8220;Satan is making it happen&#8221; or &#8220;God is changing the bugs to test us&#8221; do not constitute such an argument.)</p>
<p>While we&#8217;re at it, please define your concept of &#8220;opinion&#8221; and show how that definition is different from your concept of &#8220;fact&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ben Agag		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499554</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Agag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499554</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jehovahs Witnesses are also guilty of this - they let children die rather than lef them take blood. Drives me mad - how dare they impose their beliefs on children to the point of death then call themselves peaceful!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jehovahs Witnesses are also guilty of this &#8211; they let children die rather than lef them take blood. Drives me mad &#8211; how dare they impose their beliefs on children to the point of death then call themselves peaceful!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Coward		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499553</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Coward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499553</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dr. &quot;Smart&quot;:  you are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts. (Totally stole this from numerous sources!)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. &#8220;Smart&#8221;:  you are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts. (Totally stole this from numerous sources!)</p>
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		<title>
		By: gwen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499552</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gwen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 05:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499552</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[...Channeling that energy is extraordinarily difficult even for the strongest followes...
Do you even understand the meaning of &#039;energy&#039;?

Opinion is not fact. Wishing it is so, doesn&#039;t make it so. 
Funny that people opposing evolution don&#039;t also challenge the &#039;theory&#039; of gravity, by stepping off the nearest skyscraper. We all know, that it is also &#039;only&#039; a theory.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Channeling that energy is extraordinarily difficult even for the strongest followes&#8230;<br />
Do you even understand the meaning of &#8216;energy&#8217;?</p>
<p>Opinion is not fact. Wishing it is so, doesn&#8217;t make it so.<br />
Funny that people opposing evolution don&#8217;t also challenge the &#8216;theory&#8217; of gravity, by stepping off the nearest skyscraper. We all know, that it is also &#8216;only&#8217; a theory.</p>
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		By: Laury		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499551</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Laury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 04:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499551</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@#6 and we&#039;re entitkted to call out bad reasoning and explain why exactly the claim you&#039;ve made does not stand up to the evidence presented. But don&#039;t take our words, or &#039;opinions&#039; about it, stop just believing like it has to be true and actually test it! Seek the evidence. Test your supposed belief and see just how useless it really is for yourself. 

And while the dig about evolution should be left to pass, it&#039;s a clear symptom that you&#039;ve chosen to ignore what&#039;s in front of your very eyes. 

To paraphrase a quote from Carl &quot;no no, my god must be small, our uderstanding cannot grow because this book must have all the answers.&quot; ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@#6 and we&#8217;re entitkted to call out bad reasoning and explain why exactly the claim you&#8217;ve made does not stand up to the evidence presented. But don&#8217;t take our words, or &#8216;opinions&#8217; about it, stop just believing like it has to be true and actually test it! Seek the evidence. Test your supposed belief and see just how useless it really is for yourself. </p>
<p>And while the dig about evolution should be left to pass, it&#8217;s a clear symptom that you&#8217;ve chosen to ignore what&#8217;s in front of your very eyes. </p>
<p>To paraphrase a quote from Carl &#8220;no no, my god must be small, our uderstanding cannot grow because this book must have all the answers.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>
		By: peter		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499550</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 04:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/02/21/faith-healing-deaths-in-oregon/#comment-499550</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I do not believe in fairy tales.&quot;

&quot;As a Christian I know it is entirely possible to heal someone this way.&quot;

&#039;nough said. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I do not believe in fairy tales.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;As a Christian I know it is entirely possible to heal someone this way.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8216;nough said. </p>
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