Comments on: Do we take the N-word out of Twain? https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/ Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:39:12 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.8 By: itzac https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497595 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:39:12 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497595 I’ve gotta say, Greg, you’ve changed my opinion on this,not that it was too strongly held before.

Here’s something odd I’ve noticed. Some are arguing that this was simply the way people talked back then, that word meanings change, and that we should explain the original meaning of the word. Others are saying the word was specifically used for its effect and shouldn’t be changed.

The first argument rather neatly scuttles the second. In the setting of the book, nigger meant slave. A particular type of slave perhaps, but that’s it. It wasn’t until after abolition that it became a way to remind people of their past and of the way that the speaker, presumably, felt things ought still to be. And that phenomenon was really only just budding, and probably largely ignored when Twain wrote the book.

While there’s certainly plenty of discussion to be had about the n-word, I think this book works just fine even with the edits.

I hope I haven’t rehashed something that’s already been said in one of the comments I skimmed.

]]> By: R.C. Hughes https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497594 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:12:23 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497594 It seems to me to discuss whether it’s ever “okay” to edit a classic is leaving half the question in this case unasked. Professor Gibben makes very clear that he produced this version not because the word offended him, but because the word was being used as a reason for banning or not teaching the book. Whether the repetition of the word 200+ times is a valid reason for excluding the work may be a valid debate, but it’s different from this one.

The whole question is: “Is producing an edited version of a classic preferable to omitting it from some curriculum entirely?” The answer to me is as obvious as saying that teaching a translation of “Anna Karenina” is preferable to telling non-Russian speakers they’re out of luck.

]]> By: Matt Johnson https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497593 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 04:06:17 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497593 Thanks for the info Greg. I’m not a big Crichton fan but that book suprised me. I agree that it’s not exactly “the” Beowulf story.

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497592 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 03:35:05 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497592 That book was originally Crichton’s Senior Thesis for William Howell at Harvard (where he got his anthro undergrad). Later, he turned it into a book (with a different name, IIRC, though I can’t remember that name). Then, after he became more famous he did some rewrite and republished it as Eaters, and that was probably linked to it being made into a film (not a terrible film).

It isn’t really (or at least wasn’t originally) the Beowulf story exactly, though there is overlap. It implies Beowulf, but is based on a true story of an Arab ambassador from the Ottoman Empire to Hungry (large parts of the story are based directly on his diary) combined with the standing hypotheses at the time of different “hominids” living in Europe in the Paleolithic, with the twist (added by Crichton) that there would be survivors of that earlier age much more recently. But in the movie the story got all mucked up. (Between the two, obvoiusly, read the book.) Remember, Beowulf was originally constructed by people who did not have theories of hominids.

]]> By: Matt Johnson https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497591 Mon, 10 Jan 2011 03:29:08 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497591 Hey, Mike H – A really good version of the Beowulf story is Michael Crichton’s book Eaters Of The Dead (aka the 13th Warrior) Excellent book.

]]> By: ginarex https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497590 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:31:02 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497590 Hmmmm…I’m finding it quite difficult to take posts seriously anymore (not exclusively on this blog or scienceblogs.) Probably because I attended schools where English literature was just that – writing that had influenced who we are as Americans. It wasn’t censored for “correctness” other than that it had stood the test of time: beauty was a big part of that test – writing was important as an art FIRST. Then came cultural and historical significance. Politics? Nowhere to be found. My childhood education was dominated by humanist ideas. Politics was a dirty activity, and still is, whichever side of the hog trough one feeds from.

]]> By: Natalie Sera https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497589 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 05:39:41 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497589 So, they’re still teaching Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, which is extremely offensive to Jews, in the 9th grade. Even the teachers who try to understand how horrible a tragedy it is, don’t really understand. After all, it IS Shakespeare!

I don’t think we can simply get rid of all the offensive material that is out there, and I do think it is better to discuss it and teach the reality of history, than to sweep it under the carpet. Most American Christians haven’t a clue as to how murderous their devoutly Christian ancestors were to Jews in Europe, let alone how indefensible slavery was. Let’s at least bring REAL history out in the open.

]]> By: Drivebyposter https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497588 Sun, 09 Jan 2011 00:55:28 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497588

Stupid shit gina Rex said

It’s quite appropriate that you mentioned all of that considering all of the things you are opposing are unrelated to this blog post.

No one said you could catch racism from reading (not that you’d know anything about reading first hand) but the fact that the word “nigger” is thrown around left and right in a book frequently given to children should give a rational person at least a moment of pause. Your spasm of stupid tells us that you are probably not worth paying much attention to.

What’s fascistic about questioning introducing children (who are frequently young) to a literary world full of hate and inhuman treatment?

*mocking tone* “EHHHHHHHH EVERYONE FACISM!!! GREG LADEN NAZI HATE WORDS FREEDOM OF SPEECH CHILDREN FACIST! HERPES”

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497587 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 23:35:00 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497587 Mike, that probably was a modern translation since the original story was in spoken old Norse or something. With hand gestures.

Gina, thanks for your comment. Perfect. Are you from this crowd by any chance?

]]> By: Mike Haubrich https://gregladen.com/blog/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497586 Sat, 08 Jan 2011 23:22:30 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/07/do-we-take-the-n-word-out-of-t/#comment-497586 If a modern version is edited to replace the word “nigger” for a certain audience, that certainly does not necessitate all prior versions be burned or otherwise destroyed. If it opens the book to people who would otherwise not read it because they don’t want to read the word, then I am okay with this. Perhaps they will return to the original version at a different time.

However, I am not about to tell a black American that they can just get fucked if they don’t know how to learn the lesson the way that Twain wrote it.

This was written in the 19th century. Words change. Meanings change. It is not sacrilegious to adapt literature from one century to the next, to “translate” it, if you will, anymore than it is to translate from French to English.

I am sure that I would enjoy “Beowulf” if I were given a more modern translation of it.

]]>