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	Comments on: The Fetish in relation to Skepticism	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 01:43:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526999</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 01:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526999</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Oh, right, like you&#039;ll be an hour down the road and turn back because you remembered that you forgot to close the friggin curtains in the cabin, but you&#039;ll go to Cancun for two weeks and leave all the curtains open at home.  What is it, like, your rug at home doesn&#039;t obey the laws of physics or something??&quot;

How was that? 

By the way, I would have thought that the UV light that fades the rug would be the same UV light that kills the midew, in both cases by busting up chemical bonds in complex molecules.

Somebody please explain to me what is wrong here.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Oh, right, like you&#8217;ll be an hour down the road and turn back because you remembered that you forgot to close the friggin curtains in the cabin, but you&#8217;ll go to Cancun for two weeks and leave all the curtains open at home.  What is it, like, your rug at home doesn&#8217;t obey the laws of physics or something??&#8221;</p>
<p>How was that? </p>
<p>By the way, I would have thought that the UV light that fades the rug would be the same UV light that kills the midew, in both cases by busting up chemical bonds in complex molecules.</p>
<p>Somebody please explain to me what is wrong here.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Cath the Canberra Cook		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526998</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cath the Canberra Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 01:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526998</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Why do I fail to close the curtains? Because it&#039;s a pleasant sunny room, and that particular faded carpet is not a big deal. We&#039;re more careful with some other rugs.

I still can&#039;t see how it makes more sense if read as sarcasm. Your writing style is quite obscure to me at times.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do I fail to close the curtains? Because it&#8217;s a pleasant sunny room, and that particular faded carpet is not a big deal. We&#8217;re more careful with some other rugs.</p>
<p>I still can&#8217;t see how it makes more sense if read as sarcasm. Your writing style is quite obscure to me at times.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim Thomerson		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526997</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Thomerson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 01:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526997</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I caught, fried, and ate a bowfin.  It was like eating fish flavored mashed potatoes. Black bass have yellow grubs in their flesh in the summer.  Just fry them up and they go away.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I caught, fried, and ate a bowfin.  It was like eating fish flavored mashed potatoes. Black bass have yellow grubs in their flesh in the summer.  Just fry them up and they go away.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526996</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526996</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, yes, I have encountered that one too.  I&#039;m not sure the Brown bottle can be cleaned effectively either.  Someone gave us a partial set of Brown bottle stuff because it was not working for them.  

Another fetish is attributing everything to genes.  So, you can pick:  Your child burps up half its milk ... is that because you need a new bottle or because of genes?  

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, yes, I have encountered that one too.  I&#8217;m not sure the Brown bottle can be cleaned effectively either.  Someone gave us a partial set of Brown bottle stuff because it was not working for them.  </p>
<p>Another fetish is attributing everything to genes.  So, you can pick:  Your child burps up half its milk &#8230; is that because you need a new bottle or because of genes?  </p>
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		<title>
		By: gwen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526995</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gwen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526995</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Funny you should mention this. I am running headlong into the same &#039;fetish&#039; issue at work with a new &#039;wonder bottle&#039;. The nurses attended a conference and were thoroughly indoctrinated into the wonders of the Dr Brown bottle. When I checked for studies, everything I could find was so poorly done as to be useless. The nurse who is pushing it the hardest, then falls back onto anecdote &quot;my grandkids used them and never had colic&quot;,she was flummoxed when I suggested that perhaps they would not have had colic regardless of the bottle. A fetish has grown up around this bottle system, and the maker is making a fortune out of it. I am waiting for it to be recalled after an older sibling opens the bottle and chokes on one of the many small pieces.... :(]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny you should mention this. I am running headlong into the same &#8216;fetish&#8217; issue at work with a new &#8216;wonder bottle&#8217;. The nurses attended a conference and were thoroughly indoctrinated into the wonders of the Dr Brown bottle. When I checked for studies, everything I could find was so poorly done as to be useless. The nurse who is pushing it the hardest, then falls back onto anecdote &#8220;my grandkids used them and never had colic&#8221;,she was flummoxed when I suggested that perhaps they would not have had colic regardless of the bottle. A fetish has grown up around this bottle system, and the maker is making a fortune out of it. I am waiting for it to be recalled after an older sibling opens the bottle and chokes on one of the many small pieces&#8230;. 🙁</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526994</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 17:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526994</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Elizabeth (the first) Yes, there is a link! Spoken like a true anthropologist.  The link is the Goffman key.  The key identifies the frame and frame-shifts the object of the framing.  Exactly.  Frames are probably bigger than fetishes but there is no reason the structure can&#039;t be applied to both cases.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elizabeth (the first) Yes, there is a link! Spoken like a true anthropologist.  The link is the Goffman key.  The key identifies the frame and frame-shifts the object of the framing.  Exactly.  Frames are probably bigger than fetishes but there is no reason the structure can&#8217;t be applied to both cases.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Elizabeth		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526993</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elizabeth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 16:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526993</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The fetish is in reference to an underlying theme driving the &quot;logic&quot; of the argument. Underlying themes: Wild animals are gamy. Martin Scorsese pictures always look like Taxi Driver. A plant&#039;s compounds are weak and expensive compared to a pill. 

Each underlying theme allows to predict the next irrational statement. We can see the cranberry juice comments coming before they are made, we know our friend Ruth will not watch a new Scorcese picture and we know Joe will never order the buffalo burger.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fetish is in reference to an underlying theme driving the &#8220;logic&#8221; of the argument. Underlying themes: Wild animals are gamy. Martin Scorsese pictures always look like Taxi Driver. A plant&#8217;s compounds are weak and expensive compared to a pill. </p>
<p>Each underlying theme allows to predict the next irrational statement. We can see the cranberry juice comments coming before they are made, we know our friend Ruth will not watch a new Scorcese picture and we know Joe will never order the buffalo burger.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526992</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 16:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526992</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kapitano, I think most people would agree that a superstition relies, as you suggest, on magical belief.  The pretty woman standing next to the dude at the roulette table somehow sends magical rays to the mechanism and makes it know which slot to stop the ball in based on the dude&#039;s bets.  Fetishizing a concept does not require anything magical.  The first time I heard someone use the term is a good example:  We were in a faculty meeting talking about pre-req&#039;s.  The assumption underlying pre-requisites is that they are very important in serving a certain role ... guaranteeing that eveyrone who took the 500 level class had the 400 level knowledge, who in turn too that 400 level class with 300 level knowledge, etc. etc.

SOmeone&#039;s suggestion that we had &quot;fetishized pre-requisites&quot; meant that we were making very strong assumption about an important feature of something and then drawing (in this case costly) conclusions from those assumptions, without testing the assumptions at all ... and indeed, this would have been part of a larger fetish:  All the usual expectations of hither education ... that 120 credits = a bachelor&#039;s degree but 110 does not, that &quot;majoring&quot; required specific courses and 40 credits (or whatever) of concentration, and so on and so forth.

We actually tested the value of pre=-reqs, and discovered that they were useless.  Not unimportant, just useless the way we had implemented them.  We had assumed their importance because they are part of the system and questioning them is questioning general knowledge.

In discussions of education we see the concept of &quot;process over facts&quot; fetishized. You can&#039;t have a conversation of 10 or more people about K-12 education without someone saying &quot;the problem these days is that they teach facts and not process&quot; ... and that is typically said by someone who is not an educator and has not been in a classroom for 30 years, but everyone will nod, accepting it uncritically, despite the fact that in most progressive states teaching process has been a thrust of change in all curriculum development for decades.  As a society critical of education we have fetishized that concept.

We see the interest of the &quot;all suffering taxpayer fetishized in politics.  We see &quot;free speech&quot; fetishized all over the place on the internet ... uncritically an hypertonically overvalued and centralized without argument.  

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kapitano, I think most people would agree that a superstition relies, as you suggest, on magical belief.  The pretty woman standing next to the dude at the roulette table somehow sends magical rays to the mechanism and makes it know which slot to stop the ball in based on the dude&#8217;s bets.  Fetishizing a concept does not require anything magical.  The first time I heard someone use the term is a good example:  We were in a faculty meeting talking about pre-req&#8217;s.  The assumption underlying pre-requisites is that they are very important in serving a certain role &#8230; guaranteeing that eveyrone who took the 500 level class had the 400 level knowledge, who in turn too that 400 level class with 300 level knowledge, etc. etc.</p>
<p>SOmeone&#8217;s suggestion that we had &#8220;fetishized pre-requisites&#8221; meant that we were making very strong assumption about an important feature of something and then drawing (in this case costly) conclusions from those assumptions, without testing the assumptions at all &#8230; and indeed, this would have been part of a larger fetish:  All the usual expectations of hither education &#8230; that 120 credits = a bachelor&#8217;s degree but 110 does not, that &#8220;majoring&#8221; required specific courses and 40 credits (or whatever) of concentration, and so on and so forth.</p>
<p>We actually tested the value of pre=-reqs, and discovered that they were useless.  Not unimportant, just useless the way we had implemented them.  We had assumed their importance because they are part of the system and questioning them is questioning general knowledge.</p>
<p>In discussions of education we see the concept of &#8220;process over facts&#8221; fetishized. You can&#8217;t have a conversation of 10 or more people about K-12 education without someone saying &#8220;the problem these days is that they teach facts and not process&#8221; &#8230; and that is typically said by someone who is not an educator and has not been in a classroom for 30 years, but everyone will nod, accepting it uncritically, despite the fact that in most progressive states teaching process has been a thrust of change in all curriculum development for decades.  As a society critical of education we have fetishized that concept.</p>
<p>We see the interest of the &#8220;all suffering taxpayer fetishized in politics.  We see &#8220;free speech&#8221; fetishized all over the place on the internet &#8230; uncritically an hypertonically overvalued and centralized without argument.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: P. Locans		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526991</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P. Locans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 16:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526991</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What is the point of Orac attacking a blog on vaccine anti-denial? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the point of Orac attacking a blog on vaccine anti-denial? </p>
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		<title>
		By: Kapitano		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526990</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kapitano]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2010 16:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/26/the-fetish-in-relation-to-skep/#comment-526990</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What does this term &#039;Fetish&#039; add to the already existing set of terms including &#039;Magical Thinking&#039; and &#039;Superstition&#039;?

Both terms, as I understand them, posit a direct but invisible causal connection between two events which have no direct connection - for example, &quot;Cold weather gives people rhinoviruses&quot;, &quot;Blowing on the dice makes your throw luckier&quot;, &quot;Crossing a black cat invites disaster&quot;, &quot;Brain Training games make you perceptive&quot;, and indeed &quot;God said let there be light, and there was light&quot;.

Depending on the person, they may or may not cobble together some vague explanation for the supposed connection - &quot;Willpower changes the universe&quot;, &quot;cold weather weakens the immune system&quot;, &quot;scientists don&#039;t know everything&quot; etc. But there&#039;s no reason why a half-baked explanation should be essential, and many manage without one.

So what&#039;s the difference between a fetish and a superstition?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does this term &#8216;Fetish&#8217; add to the already existing set of terms including &#8216;Magical Thinking&#8217; and &#8216;Superstition&#8217;?</p>
<p>Both terms, as I understand them, posit a direct but invisible causal connection between two events which have no direct connection &#8211; for example, &#8220;Cold weather gives people rhinoviruses&#8221;, &#8220;Blowing on the dice makes your throw luckier&#8221;, &#8220;Crossing a black cat invites disaster&#8221;, &#8220;Brain Training games make you perceptive&#8221;, and indeed &#8220;God said let there be light, and there was light&#8221;.</p>
<p>Depending on the person, they may or may not cobble together some vague explanation for the supposed connection &#8211; &#8220;Willpower changes the universe&#8221;, &#8220;cold weather weakens the immune system&#8221;, &#8220;scientists don&#8217;t know everything&#8221; etc. But there&#8217;s no reason why a half-baked explanation should be essential, and many manage without one.</p>
<p>So what&#8217;s the difference between a fetish and a superstition?</p>
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