<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss"
	xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Teaching kids real math with computers	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:10:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.8</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Russell		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526579</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526579</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You know what the linguists say: It&#039;s not the verbing of nouns that weirds language, but their renounification. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what the linguists say: It&#8217;s not the verbing of nouns that weirds language, but their renounification. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Jean-Denis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526578</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean-Denis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526578</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, I don&#039;t think you can fix the Flash problem either. That&#039;s why I suggested that you also provide a link to the original content provider when your video is Flash.

Of course, I also emailed TED to suggest they improve their embedded player: their content *is* available as plain mp4 video after all.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I don&#8217;t think you can fix the Flash problem either. That&#8217;s why I suggested that you also provide a link to the original content provider when your video is Flash.</p>
<p>Of course, I also emailed TED to suggest they improve their embedded player: their content *is* available as plain mp4 video after all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526577</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526577</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think were are talking about not teaching arithmetic.  You need and use arithmetic and to be able to do it.

I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m the one to fix the flash problem.  Frankly, I post the TED videos because they are very easy to post and one if five creates an interesting conversation like this one.  If it became one step harder I&#039;d not do it.  

But I do fully support the elimination of flash. I will take this up with TED and we will try to make this happen at a higher level.

But first tell me what the alternative would be: What type of embed code or plug in is better.  It has to be simple, so a blogger can cut and paste it just like one does youtube videos and then it basically works in everybody&#039;s computer.    ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think were are talking about not teaching arithmetic.  You need and use arithmetic and to be able to do it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m the one to fix the flash problem.  Frankly, I post the TED videos because they are very easy to post and one if five creates an interesting conversation like this one.  If it became one step harder I&#8217;d not do it.  </p>
<p>But I do fully support the elimination of flash. I will take this up with TED and we will try to make this happen at a higher level.</p>
<p>But first tell me what the alternative would be: What type of embed code or plug in is better.  It has to be simple, so a blogger can cut and paste it just like one does youtube videos and then it basically works in everybody&#8217;s computer.    </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: MadScientist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526576</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MadScientist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526576</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Greg #13: The problem there is that even the potentially good kids will all have addled minds by the time they get to the stage to learn something more than basic arithmetic. So do we start teaching arithmetic in college or something? Let the kids use calculators when they&#039;re out working in the real world; don&#039;t cripple their minds by telling them they don&#039;t have to understand stuff, just punch buttons. Try to devise the classes so that children understand math - computers are also great tools for helping them practice arithmetic (or even algebra, but they probably still need a pencil and paper). Otherwise we might turn out kids who resemble that Japanese guy from one of Richard Feynman&#039;s stories.  The guy had an abacus and was adept at rote calculation.  Feynman eventually figured out that the guy didn&#039;t actually understand mathematics though, so he managed to challenge the guy and win.

Also keep in mind that the pencil and paper are merely tools to help students keep track while performing more complicated series of operations. The writing is not meant to teach at all as Wolfram suggests - it is merely a convenient set of tools. If you can come up with a computer program that allows students to express these intermediate steps and students can operate the computer much quicker than a pencil then that would be fantastic - it would be genuinely useful. Think about command line vs. GUI. For me the good thing about computer arithmetic games is that they exercise your memory as well as your arithmetic, but I would not expect many people to be able to do things like long division in their heads - for that they&#039;d still need to express the intermediate results.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg #13: The problem there is that even the potentially good kids will all have addled minds by the time they get to the stage to learn something more than basic arithmetic. So do we start teaching arithmetic in college or something? Let the kids use calculators when they&#8217;re out working in the real world; don&#8217;t cripple their minds by telling them they don&#8217;t have to understand stuff, just punch buttons. Try to devise the classes so that children understand math &#8211; computers are also great tools for helping them practice arithmetic (or even algebra, but they probably still need a pencil and paper). Otherwise we might turn out kids who resemble that Japanese guy from one of Richard Feynman&#8217;s stories.  The guy had an abacus and was adept at rote calculation.  Feynman eventually figured out that the guy didn&#8217;t actually understand mathematics though, so he managed to challenge the guy and win.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that the pencil and paper are merely tools to help students keep track while performing more complicated series of operations. The writing is not meant to teach at all as Wolfram suggests &#8211; it is merely a convenient set of tools. If you can come up with a computer program that allows students to express these intermediate steps and students can operate the computer much quicker than a pencil then that would be fantastic &#8211; it would be genuinely useful. Think about command line vs. GUI. For me the good thing about computer arithmetic games is that they exercise your memory as well as your arithmetic, but I would not expect many people to be able to do things like long division in their heads &#8211; for that they&#8217;d still need to express the intermediate results.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Jean-Denis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526575</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean-Denis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526575</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg,

When posting video, especially when it&#039;s Flash video, please post a link to the original video. I among a growing number of people who just deleted their Flash plugin. In most cases, this has no impact, as most sites now provide HTML5 content anyway.

Of course, using HTML5-friendly code in your post would be the best option, but at least give an outside link.

In this case I had to dig out your page HTML source code to find that the video comes from TED, then dig out the web page where I can play it from without Flash:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html

BTW, getting rid of the Flash plugin let to a very significant battery-life increase in my laptop. I can now use it for a full work day without recharging (as it happened this week when I forgot my AC charger at home when leaving for a client&#039;s facility for a full day work).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>When posting video, especially when it&#8217;s Flash video, please post a link to the original video. I among a growing number of people who just deleted their Flash plugin. In most cases, this has no impact, as most sites now provide HTML5 content anyway.</p>
<p>Of course, using HTML5-friendly code in your post would be the best option, but at least give an outside link.</p>
<p>In this case I had to dig out your page HTML source code to find that the video comes from TED, then dig out the web page where I can play it from without Flash:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/conrad_wolfram_teaching_kids_real_math_with_computers.html</a></p>
<p>BTW, getting rid of the Flash plugin let to a very significant battery-life increase in my laptop. I can now use it for a full work day without recharging (as it happened this week when I forgot my AC charger at home when leaving for a client&#8217;s facility for a full day work).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: travc		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526574</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[travc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526574</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think a lot of people, including C Wolfram, don&#039;t really get how using computers to teach math is really useful.  It isn&#039;t about avoiding boring repetition (well, not primarily).

IMO, the real teaching power comes from the students *teaching* the computer.  Instead of teaching kids to use the &#039;stdev&#039; function... you teach them what a standard deviation is, how it is useful, how to compute it, and then have them write their own function to compute it.
From that point they can just use the function and further explore / illuminate the properties.

The idea of just using Mathematica to solve algebra or calculus problems for you is not very useful for teaching.  At least until after the students already understand what the program is actually doing at a conceptual level.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of people, including C Wolfram, don&#8217;t really get how using computers to teach math is really useful.  It isn&#8217;t about avoiding boring repetition (well, not primarily).</p>
<p>IMO, the real teaching power comes from the students *teaching* the computer.  Instead of teaching kids to use the &#8216;stdev&#8217; function&#8230; you teach them what a standard deviation is, how it is useful, how to compute it, and then have them write their own function to compute it.<br />
From that point they can just use the function and further explore / illuminate the properties.</p>
<p>The idea of just using Mathematica to solve algebra or calculus problems for you is not very useful for teaching.  At least until after the students already understand what the program is actually doing at a conceptual level.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: travc		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526573</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[travc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526573</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[PS: I&#039;m actually a lesser author on several papers about language evolution form a theoretical standpoint.  So maybe I should have said &quot;I meant to do that&quot; :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: I&#8217;m actually a lesser author on several papers about language evolution form a theoretical standpoint.  So maybe I should have said &#8220;I meant to do that&#8221; 🙂</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: travc		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526572</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[travc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526572</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: synergy vs synergize...
Yeah, I suck at natural languages.  But I claim spell-checker malfeasance on this one :p]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: synergy vs synergize&#8230;<br />
Yeah, I suck at natural languages.  But I claim spell-checker malfeasance on this one :p</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526571</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526571</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Doesn&#039;t this all depend on the final most likely outcome?  Should any of fields i K-12 (or equivalent) be designed to move students towards mastery, employment, expertise in the field?  That is how it is done.  I&#039;m not sure it is or isn&#039;t, but if it isn&#039;t, let the computers do the hand calculating.  Maybe. Students who show extra ability and interest can be branched off into learning how to make the sliders. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t this all depend on the final most likely outcome?  Should any of fields i K-12 (or equivalent) be designed to move students towards mastery, employment, expertise in the field?  That is how it is done.  I&#8217;m not sure it is or isn&#8217;t, but if it isn&#8217;t, let the computers do the hand calculating.  Maybe. Students who show extra ability and interest can be branched off into learning how to make the sliders. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: MadScientist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526570</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MadScientist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/11/18/teaching-kids-real-math-with-c/#comment-526570</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OK, after actually watching (rather than just listening) I&#039;ll have to say that Conrad Wolfram is an idiot. He&#039;s a wealthy idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.

 What he seems to be advocating here is doing bogus math by clicking and dragging sliders in a GUI. Someone would have had to program that, and he seems to imply that the programmers will be the ones &quot;learning math&quot; somehow. Let&#039;s see - they&#039;ll magically know math by doing some programming. Suuuure. Well, the click n&#039; drag group can design the bridges in Wolfram&#039;s neighborhood. He completely avoids any mention of *how* humans are meant to learn math with computers. Personally I think they&#039;re great for learning arithmetic - in the 1970s there were things like the &quot;Speak and Math&quot; and later some kid&#039;s games like &quot;Monkey Math&quot; and I think those tools were very good for practicing arithmetic.

 Wolfram seems to be advocating that people mindlessly use software like his brother&#039;s Mathematica and so on. Personally I encounter too many people like that. Mathematica&#039;s a good tool, but you need to understand math *before* you use it if you wish to use it effectively. Then there are other tools like Statistica which are more prone to abuse than Mathematica.  People click buttons without understanding what they&#039;re doing and they come up with 100% bullshit - worse still there are obviously so many innumerate people out there that the bullshit gets published! That is not mathematics, that is pseudo-mathematics.  It&#039;s every bit as bad as the &quot;Bayesian Mania&quot;.  Bayes&#039; work was great stuff and I make use of it every few years, but there are tools out there being used by clueless people who make ridiculous claims in the mistaken belief that the claims must be true because they used a tool which mentioned Bayes.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, after actually watching (rather than just listening) I&#8217;ll have to say that Conrad Wolfram is an idiot. He&#8217;s a wealthy idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.</p>
<p> What he seems to be advocating here is doing bogus math by clicking and dragging sliders in a GUI. Someone would have had to program that, and he seems to imply that the programmers will be the ones &#8220;learning math&#8221; somehow. Let&#8217;s see &#8211; they&#8217;ll magically know math by doing some programming. Suuuure. Well, the click n&#8217; drag group can design the bridges in Wolfram&#8217;s neighborhood. He completely avoids any mention of *how* humans are meant to learn math with computers. Personally I think they&#8217;re great for learning arithmetic &#8211; in the 1970s there were things like the &#8220;Speak and Math&#8221; and later some kid&#8217;s games like &#8220;Monkey Math&#8221; and I think those tools were very good for practicing arithmetic.</p>
<p> Wolfram seems to be advocating that people mindlessly use software like his brother&#8217;s Mathematica and so on. Personally I encounter too many people like that. Mathematica&#8217;s a good tool, but you need to understand math *before* you use it if you wish to use it effectively. Then there are other tools like Statistica which are more prone to abuse than Mathematica.  People click buttons without understanding what they&#8217;re doing and they come up with 100% bullshit &#8211; worse still there are obviously so many innumerate people out there that the bullshit gets published! That is not mathematics, that is pseudo-mathematics.  It&#8217;s every bit as bad as the &#8220;Bayesian Mania&#8221;.  Bayes&#8217; work was great stuff and I make use of it every few years, but there are tools out there being used by clueless people who make ridiculous claims in the mistaken belief that the claims must be true because they used a tool which mentioned Bayes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
