I also feel threatened when I see people who believe that the Bible is the literal word of their divinity trying to take political power and position themselves to pass laws that require me to live by the laws of that Bible. It worries me that between fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims, there are at least two groups in the world who think that if I’m raped, it’s probably because I showed some ankle or some elbow (or neck). It worries me that they think they should be trying to control who I can sleep with, because after all a nation that allows fornication and adultery and homosexual acts is a nation that will be punished by Teh Lord!

Maybe you’re a nice, sweet, honest guy who would never try to take away my freedoms, and maybe you’re completely open to allowing honest and open scientific discourse and the teaching of real science in schools. But if you are, your fellow young-earthers will begin to point out what they consider the error of your ways….

It would be more honest for Justin to say “I believe the biblical account of creation because it makes me happy. I’m not interested in believing anything that doesn’t make me happy. I’m entitled to choose what I want to believe, and I’m not obligated to follow the rules of science when choosing. I have no use for evidence, or logic. It can only introduce doubt. Get thee behind me, Scientist!”

Paul, not trying to start an argument but you do know that the “exodus” in which the book portrays was real and in which they have archaeological evidence for right?

[citation needed]

Even according to Egyptian finds the plagues DID happen

[citation very much needed…and no, “Jews celebrating Passover” doesn’t count]

For people who feel they are “too smart” to believe in god some of you really can’t grasp or comprehend what Justin is saying.

It’s rude to put words in people’s mouths. I never said I was too smart to believe in god. Plenty of smart people believe in god. Perhaps I lack a brain defect that makes it possible — I don’t wholly discount the possibility. After all, I never did experience that religious feeling that’s been documented, even when I was sincerely doing all that churchy stuff. Or perhaps there’s no such defect. I don’t know, and I don’t mind saying so. That doesn’t make the self-contradictory entity described in the Christian Bible any more possible, though.

But calling him ignorant to the world of science could be said for most of you in the world faith and religion.

Is this even a sentence?

He is simply stating his belief and faith and why he feels this way, much like you would state a scientific theory. All theory’s are faith that equations and formula’s point to a specific out come.

Let’s try a thought experiment. Imagine someone who has never seen a Christian Bible. Never spoken to a Christian. Is there any collection of information that could lead him to posit the existence of YHWH? Or to believe Earth was created and populated in 6 days? That it’s not kosher to eat pork or to commit homosexual acts?

Because that is how scientific theories are reached. A body of data is collected, and eventually a theory forms to explain the data in a consistent manner. If you want to equivocate between theism and scientific theory you really need to demonstrate how raw data could lead to that conclusion, in the absence of pre-existing religious dogma.

As for your ignorant science rant, that’s not demonstrating “contradiction in science”. That’s demonstrating how simplified models are just that, models. They don’t paint the whole story. It’s not a contradiction to say pi = 3.14 and to later use a power function to give a much more accurate value. The former is only a simplification. It’s not a contradiction to say everything is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons, then to later point out that they in turn have their own component parts. That’s simply an elaboration.

Besides, if new scientific theories contradict old ones, the new ones simply become the current working theory. Science doesn’t claim unchanging infallible dogma like some religions. Contradiction isn’t an issue, it’s expected when you’re working from a position of imperfect knowledge. And we’re fine with that. We don’t claim to have all the answers. That doesn’t mean we can’t point out contradiction issues with those that claim to have a fount of unassailable knowledge.

Paul, not trying to start an argument but you do know that the “exodus” in which the book portrays was real and in which they have archaeological evidence for right? Even according to Egyptian finds the plagues DID happen, the Jews DID leave Egypt and they even have evidence of them living in the desert and even a “Sinai”. Sure maybe the red sea didn’t part as they say or god provide “mana” to the Jews but the event DID happen. And there is evidence of it.

For people who feel they are “too smart” to believe in god some of you really can’t grasp or comprehend what Justin is saying. He is simply stating his belief and faith and why he feels this way, much like you would state a scientific theory. All theory’s are faith that equations and formula’s point to a specific out come.

I don’t believe the bible is 100% literal as Justin does. But calling him ignorant to the world of science could be said for most of you in the world faith and religion.

I saw some posts about where people picked apart certain bible versus to show contradiction. Anyone can show contradiction in anything, even in a constant in science. “C” or the speed of light can in fact increase with lower vacuum energy known as the Scharnhorst effect, so how can a scientific constant change? Also according to Einsteins e=mc^2 it says that for anything to travel the speed of light it will need infinite energy or infinite time to accelerate to. However there are theory’s or faith in the scientific world of elemental particles which ALWAYS travel faster then light known as Tachyons. So how can it nothing with mass travel faster then the speed of light but this is supposed to? Not only that it works in the negative of e=mc^2?

1. If it was empirically proven that the historical Jesus did not exist, die on a crucifix, or rise from the dead.

Are you aware of the issues inherent with trying to prove a negative? What proof do you require to affirm that “historical Jesus” did exist, die on a crucifix, or rise from the dead? Why is the Bible considered sufficient evidence when the events do not show up in any (non-doctored) alternate sources?

2. If there was a human who was naturally good and never had any desire to lie, cheat, lust, or steal (Jeremiah 17:9-10; 1 John 1:8-10).

In the event that YHWH did not exist (or was malicious, I suppose, I didn’t specify an atheist world, only one where the bible was fallible), why would you expect a human to be “naturally good” as you describe? This criterion doesn’t really make sense at all, as evidence of either God’s nonexistence or the fallibility of the Bible.

3. If I asked for God’s forgiveness and He didn’t give it to me. (James 5:16)

Even now, how do you verify that God gives you His forgiveness? What form would not receiving His forgiveness take?

until my God is proven to be a lair, I take Him at his Word

What form would proof need to take? Are you with AiG in believing that, as I previously quoted, the Bible is the best source for ascertaining history? Because if that is the case, you’re deriving your reasons from your conclusions (it’s circular reasoning, basically). If not, how do you feel about this article? Or this study on OT historicity?

Paul, I appreciate your honest thoughts. Your question is fair, so I’ll do my best to answer. These are a few of the circumstances that could cause me to doubt the Bible’s accuracy:

1. If it was empirically proven that the historical Jesus did not exist, die on a crucifix, or rise from the dead.
2. If there was a human who was naturally good and never had any desire to lie, cheat, lust, or steal (Jeremiah 17:9-10; 1 John 1:8-10).
3. If I asked for God’s forgiveness and He didn’t give it to me. (James 5:16)

I’m sure I could think of more…but until my God is proven to be a lair, I take Him at his Word and put my absolute trust in His ancient and historically best-selling Book! He is clear that many people will not be able to accept the difficult truths contained within its pages. (1 Corinthians 2:14 and Matthew 7:13-14)

I admit that I have a LONG way to go…and am constantly learning, reading, and discussing! Following Jesus is not easy, but I have found my Christian journey to be rewarding and transforming!

From the link:
“The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universeâ??the Bible. ”

Unless, you know, you’d like to know the value of Pi. Or unless you want to know how Exodus could occur while leaving no archaeological evidence. Or unless you’re a doctor trying to figure out why people get sick, where you might want the Germ Theory of Disease instead of the Demonic Possession Theory of Disease. etc. /sigh

Justin, as to your link. Can you not tell that they’re mostly dissembling, throwing in sciency mumbo-jumbo without actually trying to use it to support their conclusions? They start with the conclusion that I quoted above. They don’t say it until the end, but that is what they want to show. They point out that in a couple case studies, there is variance in dating using different isotopes. They provide possible explanations as to why. I don’t see any methodical issues there. But why do they even bother giving this information if they are going to end with the above quote? They don’t even believe that actual physical evidence is of any use — the only useful source (if there is ever any conflict) is the Bible. Let me ask you: what would it take to convince you that perhaps the Bible explanation of an event is inaccurate? I have no interest in trying to convert you or discuss why you believe what you believe, I just wonder if you can answer that question. What would it take for you to doubt the infallibility of the Bible?

Greg – you are RIGHT! I am a sinner, and a terrible one at that. I deserve to be hated by God. I deserve to go to hell. That is why twenty-four years ago I was amazed to hear that God not only loved me, but was willing to forgive me…completely and totally!

I accepted His forgiveness that day, and have never been the same. I remain a sinner, but I’ve been forgiven. I have a new love towards God and people. Yes, I even care about you Greg…no matter how much you may dislike me. Even your friends who believe in evolution and were quite harsh to me…they are not my enemies.

I don’t want to preach to you…so forgive me if that’s what I’ve already done! I just want to agree with your statement that I’m a sinner – and give a huge THANKS to God for forgiving me. It is incredibly freeing to find out that God can forgive anyone, even me!

Radiometric dating is what scientists use to peg ages at millions and billions of years. Would you check out this article link and send me your thoughts? They go into much more detail and explanation than I’m qualified to give!
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/radiometric-dating
Thanks!