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	Comments on: How did the victims of the Plinean Eruption of Vesuvius die?	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Stephen Oerth		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519280</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Oerth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2017 09:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519280</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When I woke up this morning, I&#039;d have gently corrected anyone speculating about the awful event that destroyed Pompeii and every living thing inhabiting it.  (&quot;Incredibly, no one alive actually got burned.  The helpless victims were smothered under 30 feet deep of ash.&quot;)  How mistaken I would have been.  Science,  it seems, has left little doubt:  The victims were burned alive.  (Odd phrase.)  All of them.  And instantaneously,  or nearly so, at that.  My instant thought was, &#039;What a horrible way to go.&quot;  But actually, no.  My brain is subject to much less painful contortions in considering the annihilation of Pompeii aware that the innocent victims were not forced to watch their family members strangle as they themselves chocked to death.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I woke up this morning, I&#8217;d have gently corrected anyone speculating about the awful event that destroyed Pompeii and every living thing inhabiting it.  (&#8220;Incredibly, no one alive actually got burned.  The helpless victims were smothered under 30 feet deep of ash.&#8221;)  How mistaken I would have been.  Science,  it seems, has left little doubt:  The victims were burned alive.  (Odd phrase.)  All of them.  And instantaneously,  or nearly so, at that.  My instant thought was, &#8216;What a horrible way to go.&#8221;  But actually, no.  My brain is subject to much less painful contortions in considering the annihilation of Pompeii aware that the innocent victims were not forced to watch their family members strangle as they themselves chocked to death.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Case		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519279</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Case]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519279</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The reality is that Earth is a savage planet that weeds out the weak and keeps the strong. It also does not discriminate when it comes to destruction. So bottom line here is that no matter where you are you nature has a way of getting at you if you let it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reality is that Earth is a savage planet that weeds out the weak and keeps the strong. It also does not discriminate when it comes to destruction. So bottom line here is that no matter where you are you nature has a way of getting at you if you let it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lena Noelle		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519278</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lena Noelle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2014 04:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519278</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Instead of turkey in a deep fryer, Sam N and Anne H, I think  of when you drop crabs in boiling water.  When you cook a crab, often people drop the live crab in the already boiling water and then it dies instantly.  I related the two situations (the crab and Mt. Vesuvius) more similarily than with a deep fryer]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead of turkey in a deep fryer, Sam N and Anne H, I think  of when you drop crabs in boiling water.  When you cook a crab, often people drop the live crab in the already boiling water and then it dies instantly.  I related the two situations (the crab and Mt. Vesuvius) more similarily than with a deep fryer</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ethan Bilke		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519277</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethan Bilke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 23:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519277</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is sad that people have to die in Volcanic Eruptions.  If there was or could be one wish that would be to not have to suffer pain any or to not die in pain like the people that lived in Pompeii, Italy.  It some times wants to make me wonder how much pain it would be to have to die in a volcanic eruption like the people in Pompeii.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is sad that people have to die in Volcanic Eruptions.  If there was or could be one wish that would be to not have to suffer pain any or to not die in pain like the people that lived in Pompeii, Italy.  It some times wants to make me wonder how much pain it would be to have to die in a volcanic eruption like the people in Pompeii.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phil Jones		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519276</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Jones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519276</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The accounts of Pompeii have always intrigued me. So many people in almost normal positions, preserved.

Ive seen various figures for the temperature and this article puts the temperature much lower at 250 while others at over 1000 degrees. Either way, a tad too hot for comfort.

Traveling at around the speed of sound you wont hear it though you might see it....but not for long.

No oxygen, no moisture and loaded with dust. So you are not going to burn. We are around 60% water so it boils, explosively in this case. So why don&#039;t we see this if the temperature was 1000 degrees. Sorry to sound gory but we are talking brains and internal organs literally exploding.

At a lower temperature it will still boil violently but probably not explosively. 250-300 is enough to sear the skin and (forgive me please) there are enough orifice to release the rapidly expanding water vapor........ears, mouth included.

We used to test sample of coal for what we called &#039;volatile content&#039;. To do this we heated one gram of coal at 900 degrees in an oxygen free atmosphere. This was a fast temperature rise. The essential shape of the coal did not change.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The accounts of Pompeii have always intrigued me. So many people in almost normal positions, preserved.</p>
<p>Ive seen various figures for the temperature and this article puts the temperature much lower at 250 while others at over 1000 degrees. Either way, a tad too hot for comfort.</p>
<p>Traveling at around the speed of sound you wont hear it though you might see it&#8230;.but not for long.</p>
<p>No oxygen, no moisture and loaded with dust. So you are not going to burn. We are around 60% water so it boils, explosively in this case. So why don&#8217;t we see this if the temperature was 1000 degrees. Sorry to sound gory but we are talking brains and internal organs literally exploding.</p>
<p>At a lower temperature it will still boil violently but probably not explosively. 250-300 is enough to sear the skin and (forgive me please) there are enough orifice to release the rapidly expanding water vapor&#8230;&#8230;..ears, mouth included.</p>
<p>We used to test sample of coal for what we called &#8216;volatile content&#8217;. To do this we heated one gram of coal at 900 degrees in an oxygen free atmosphere. This was a fast temperature rise. The essential shape of the coal did not change.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sandgroper		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519275</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sandgroper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519275</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[On your second point, I should have added that the exhibition noted that the majority of people died due to the S4 event, but they attributed it to a surge of toxic gases mixed with ash. Clearly they had not seen the evidence from the paper you linked to that it was heat rather than toxicity that was so immediately fatal. 

Sorry, I think I&#039;m done now. It&#039;s a subject of endless fascination. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On your second point, I should have added that the exhibition noted that the majority of people died due to the S4 event, but they attributed it to a surge of toxic gases mixed with ash. Clearly they had not seen the evidence from the paper you linked to that it was heat rather than toxicity that was so immediately fatal. </p>
<p>Sorry, I think I&#8217;m done now. It&#8217;s a subject of endless fascination. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Sandgroper		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519274</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sandgroper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519274</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg, thanks. Yes, I agree on both counts.

Finally, I found these photos of a cast of a young woman shielding her face. She was one of the casts in the exhibition:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_khSBbOGByJ4/SLMzUEZNUuI/AAAAAAAAAhU/Z5WrXYBrUJQ/s400/IMG_3754.JPG

http://spqr360.com/images/article_images/body_casts_in_pompeii.jpg

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080214/images/met-pompeii220.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/h/W/2/woman_800.jpg

I previously discussed with Martin Runqvist whether it is normal to be able to feel such empathy for the suffering of a total stranger who died on the opposite side of the world nearly 2,000 years ago (yes, I appreciate the irony of that comment), and he persuaded me that I&#039;m not going mad. Well, maybe we both are - he mentioned he sometimes talks to skulls.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, thanks. Yes, I agree on both counts.</p>
<p>Finally, I found these photos of a cast of a young woman shielding her face. She was one of the casts in the exhibition:</p>
<p><a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_khSBbOGByJ4/SLMzUEZNUuI/AAAAAAAAAhU/Z5WrXYBrUJQ/s400/IMG_3754.JPG" rel="nofollow ugc">http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_khSBbOGByJ4/SLMzUEZNUuI/AAAAAAAAAhU/Z5WrXYBrUJQ/s400/IMG_3754.JPG</a></p>
<p><a href="http://spqr360.com/images/article_images/body_casts_in_pompeii.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://spqr360.com/images/article_images/body_casts_in_pompeii.jpg</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080214/images/met-pompeii220.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080214/images/met-pompeii220.jpg</a></p>
<p><a href="http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/h/W/2/woman_800.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/h/W/2/woman_800.jpg</a></p>
<p>I previously discussed with Martin Runqvist whether it is normal to be able to feel such empathy for the suffering of a total stranger who died on the opposite side of the world nearly 2,000 years ago (yes, I appreciate the irony of that comment), and he persuaded me that I&#8217;m not going mad. Well, maybe we both are &#8211; he mentioned he sometimes talks to skulls.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519273</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519273</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think the idea of an almost instant death from a wave of heat is not incompatible with people knowing something was happening.  It is not necessarily the case that the heat blast would have been the first thing they could have known about coming at them.  (I&#039;m guessing here)
 
Anyway, you&#039;ve made some interesting observations, but I would suggest that in any exhibit the chosen casts may be highly selected to illustrate certain points, and an exhibit designed with one process of death in mind may well be served by a different set of casts than a different exhibit with different ideas in mind.


 ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea of an almost instant death from a wave of heat is not incompatible with people knowing something was happening.  It is not necessarily the case that the heat blast would have been the first thing they could have known about coming at them.  (I&#8217;m guessing here)</p>
<p>Anyway, you&#8217;ve made some interesting observations, but I would suggest that in any exhibit the chosen casts may be highly selected to illustrate certain points, and an exhibit designed with one process of death in mind may well be served by a different set of casts than a different exhibit with different ideas in mind.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sandgroper		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519272</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sandgroper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519272</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Addendum - from searching for images of casts, some people do look like they literally dropped dead on the spot. Others look like they died very quickly, but not instantaneously, as in this case. 

(warning - some people might find this image a bit distressing):

http://freestockphotos.com/POMPEII/BodyCasts1.jpg

I&#039;m trying to find images of some of the casts I saw in the exhibition, but no luck so far.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Addendum &#8211; from searching for images of casts, some people do look like they literally dropped dead on the spot. Others look like they died very quickly, but not instantaneously, as in this case. </p>
<p>(warning &#8211; some people might find this image a bit distressing):</p>
<p><a href="http://freestockphotos.com/POMPEII/BodyCasts1.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://freestockphotos.com/POMPEII/BodyCasts1.jpg</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to find images of some of the casts I saw in the exhibition, but no luck so far.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sandgroper		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519271</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sandgroper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/06/27/how-did-the-victims-of-the-pli/#comment-519271</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Coincidentally, a few weeks ago I had the opportunity to visit a mmuseum exhibition on Pompeii, which included some body casts. I&#039;m trying to reconcile what I saw with what is in this paper.

The casts I saw were a small sample, and it was obviously not a random sample - they were chosen selectively, I assume at least to omit casts that might be more confronting to a general public audience. Perhaps also they were chosen on the basis of the detail which was preserved, but I&#039;m guessing.

The detail observable in the casts was quite remarkable - including pretty fine detail of the clothes people were wearing, body shape, etc. So these people and their clothing did not burn much if at all before they were covered by a thick layer of very fine ash in one of the phases subsequent to S4. 

In  a humane sense, I found the casts to be very touching - they were very lifelike and sympathy-inducing, at least to me. In a couple of groups, people were reaching out to one another - notably one couple who were assumed to be a husband and wife, and a separate couple who were two young women. Some had their hands or the hems of their clothing held over their lower faces in a self-protective gesture.

I have seen plenty of photos before, but seeing the casts up very close in 3D gave me a different perspective. Of those that I saw, I had the overwhelming sense that these people knew what was happening to them and were reacting to it. In other words, death was not literally instantaneous - they had time to react. It was not death by suffocation, but likewise it was not literally instantaneous. I saw no evidence of writhing or twisting that I could discern, with the exception of the guard dog, the image of which is pretty famous. 

But it was a small sample, chosen with some bias, so I should not infer too much of a general nature. And I&#039;m no biologist. But I am somewhat familiar with deaths in natural disasters. 

But a cast of a young woman lying partly propped on one arm with the hem of her dress held up over her nose and mouth seems like pretty clear evidence she did not die instantaneously. Likewise the case of two young women lying huddled together, with one reaching out to the other, and the other case of the man and woman lying huddled together reaching out to one another.

The authors seem to be saying a few seconds to a few tens of seconds, which seems about right to me. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coincidentally, a few weeks ago I had the opportunity to visit a mmuseum exhibition on Pompeii, which included some body casts. I&#8217;m trying to reconcile what I saw with what is in this paper.</p>
<p>The casts I saw were a small sample, and it was obviously not a random sample &#8211; they were chosen selectively, I assume at least to omit casts that might be more confronting to a general public audience. Perhaps also they were chosen on the basis of the detail which was preserved, but I&#8217;m guessing.</p>
<p>The detail observable in the casts was quite remarkable &#8211; including pretty fine detail of the clothes people were wearing, body shape, etc. So these people and their clothing did not burn much if at all before they were covered by a thick layer of very fine ash in one of the phases subsequent to S4. </p>
<p>In  a humane sense, I found the casts to be very touching &#8211; they were very lifelike and sympathy-inducing, at least to me. In a couple of groups, people were reaching out to one another &#8211; notably one couple who were assumed to be a husband and wife, and a separate couple who were two young women. Some had their hands or the hems of their clothing held over their lower faces in a self-protective gesture.</p>
<p>I have seen plenty of photos before, but seeing the casts up very close in 3D gave me a different perspective. Of those that I saw, I had the overwhelming sense that these people knew what was happening to them and were reacting to it. In other words, death was not literally instantaneous &#8211; they had time to react. It was not death by suffocation, but likewise it was not literally instantaneous. I saw no evidence of writhing or twisting that I could discern, with the exception of the guard dog, the image of which is pretty famous. </p>
<p>But it was a small sample, chosen with some bias, so I should not infer too much of a general nature. And I&#8217;m no biologist. But I am somewhat familiar with deaths in natural disasters. </p>
<p>But a cast of a young woman lying partly propped on one arm with the hem of her dress held up over her nose and mouth seems like pretty clear evidence she did not die instantaneously. Likewise the case of two young women lying huddled together, with one reaching out to the other, and the other case of the man and woman lying huddled together reaching out to one another.</p>
<p>The authors seem to be saying a few seconds to a few tens of seconds, which seems about right to me. </p>
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