[http://www.project-reason.org/newsfeed/item/moral_confusion_in_the_name_of_science3/]

Damn you Greg – you made me get all cranky and now I have to write a post about it…I really don’t have time for this shit.

See Sharon, this is exactly why I am rather glad to see people creating an excuse to have this discussion. I cannot begin to describe how very irritating it is to see this meme going around – though I expect you share my irritation. While this is the first time I have seen this video, I have run across this discussion on some blog posts and in the context of both of the skeptics groups I am involved with. Actually, I have run across it more in face to face discussions, than I have online.

I am bothered as much as I am by it for two reasons, the second necessarily following the first. First off, I think that making this claim in the context of science, is a lot like people who claim to be proponents of evolutionary psych claiming that the evidence of evo-psych implies that brown people are less intelligent and women should be subservient to men because that is how evolution got us here. I am very interested in evo-psych and it pisses me off that I have to waste words when I say as much, clarifying that I am not one of those asshats. I am also very interested in the science of culture, language and cognition – including the development of moral frames.

Indeed, the discussion of science and morality is part and parcel with the discussion of evo-psych. Just not the way that, in this case Harris, seems to think it is. Nor in the way that DJ Grothe described it when I saw him speak about it. And neither in the way that the Brights seem keen on pushing it. Ultimately these claims are based on wishful thinking that clouds the judgment of people who should damn well know better. Cloaking these claims as science is just as bad science as the claims of racist and sexist evo-psych proponents.

The other reason that I get so very cranky about this bullshit, is that I spent most of my 34 years struggling with religious bullshit. While my relationship with dogma was a, shall we say, “interesting” one, I am fucking well done with dogma. That is not to say that I split with my faith to be done with dogma – to the contrary, I actually have a much more stringent moral frame than I ever have in the past. But I do not conduct myself in ways I believe are right because some god figure tells me to. I have the moral frame that I do, because this is where a combination of cultural, experiential and physiological inputs have brought me.

I suspect that science even has a lot to say about the process by which my moral frame was developed.

But that moral frame is mine. Not the same as the moral frames of my ancestors – the cultural input is very different. Not the moral frame of your average Iranian national – again, the cultural input is too different. Nor is it the same as yours or Greg’s or Stephanie’s. I am sure that our moral frames have a lot in common, but I doubt they are entirely the same.

People like to bring up things like murder, rape or care of children to make these universal claims – but it falls apart. Murder is the worse – what exactly is murder? Does this mean that any taking of human life is immoral? If not, who’s line between rightful and wrongful death is the universal moral truth? But what about rape then? If there is a universal moral truth about rape, then first off, we need to absolutely define rape – something that right or wrong, a lot of people define in a lot of different ways. And even if we could agree, do we then make the claim that every culture that has looked at rape as a amoral act at worse was totally without moral compass? That they simply didn’t have any moral frame? And when it comes to kids, our western ideals are born of a very different culture. That is not to say that people in developing countries don’t love their children – they most certainly do. But they also have a very different attitude about losing children – their infant mortality rates require it. There have been and as far as I know still are cultures that practice infanticide to prevent a child that will starve otherwise, from going through that suffering and to make sure there is that little bit more for those who are more likely to.

We won’t even go into China and the impact of their one child laws.

Fuck people and their claims of universal moral truths. The ideal is patently absurd and the desire to find such truths is little different than the drive to Believe in something greater than oneself.

What does science say?

Good question, and it brings up a point about blogging (or at least this blog) that I think is important.

I have not watched this talk. That statement will enrage some of my readers who feel that by posting something I’m endorsing it. However, it is not the case that posting something is endorsing it. No such rule exists, plain and simple, full stop, end of story. If I say I endorse something then even then I may change my mind. If I say nothing, what can be assumed?

At the same time, yes, it is true that I generally post stuff I want to promote, but as suggested by Stephanie and others above, I may be promoting a discussion rather thana point of view.

This video has been passed around on Facebook for the last few days, and I figure I’ve got to get around to watching it, and I will. Posting it here is part of the runup for my eventual evaluation and critique of it. If I understand correctly, this is an area that I am interesting in and know something about, so I’m looking forward to watching the video (maybe the longer version) and producing a few remarks, or more, about it.

It is funny to look back at the comments and see a fight emerging about this.

Anyway, I’ll tell you in advance that I’m not likely to be sympathetic to an argument that “science produces or explains morality” in part because I’ve seen very little that has been done in that area that is very good. I tend to think that science CAN inform us rearding moral/ethical decisions, but not as an overarching coming from above sort of “source” but rather as a tool that can be used here and there, with no clear a priori reasoning as to where it might work well vs. not.

Like I used science in relation to animal rights elsewhere on this blog. For a certain set of reasons, figuring out which organisms should get more vs. less special status, one can and I think should use phylogeny (together with other things). That is a link between science and ethics/morality that is fairly particularistic and quirky, but valid and useful.

So, let’s see the discussion continue on the contents of the video, and shift away from endorsement or not and how that all works. BTW, go back and look at all the previous TED talks I’ve posted. Half of them are disagreeable crap, but almost all of them are very disussable.

As for why I didn’t do a long critique on it – short on time today. I’m debating whether there’s enough there that overlaps with my own areas of interest to be worth doing a post about why I think Harris is wrong.

In other words, either join the conversation or shut the fuck up and let those of us who want to discuss it do so.