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	Comments on: Science, Faith, Scepticism, Belief and The Great Unknown	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/</link>
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		<title>
		By: MadScientist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512789</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MadScientist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 03:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512789</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@noel: hehehe; it&#039;s even funnier that many catholics believe that too, but if you were so unlucky to be coerced into studying Canon Law (among other things) as I was, you would learn that that is not quite the case - and also learn that the vast majority of catholic priests are unaware of the official rules as well.  It&#039;s truly a case of the blind leading the blind and yet the sect persists - almost 2000 years and still going. One of my favorites is the &quot;infallibility&quot; of the pope. The official rules say that the pope is infallible on issues of morals and doctrines when he issues proclamations with the accord of a magisterial council. The last magisterial council was the Second Vatican Council which concluded during the reign of pope John #6. The pope famously (well, famous in some circles) issued a Papal Bull declaring his personal opinion on the use of prophylactics for birth control. The magesterial council could not agree on anything so the pope stood up and said he believed that it was immoral - however we must credit that pope with some honesty because in the same declaration he stated that it is his own opinion and that it is up to individuals to make a decision based on their own conscience. The pope John Paul #2 was a voracious liar who attempted to project an image of absolute infallibility, frequently declaring that the use of contraceptives is deemed by the church (not solely by the pope) as immoral. The new pope is also a goddamned liar.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@noel: hehehe; it&#8217;s even funnier that many catholics believe that too, but if you were so unlucky to be coerced into studying Canon Law (among other things) as I was, you would learn that that is not quite the case &#8211; and also learn that the vast majority of catholic priests are unaware of the official rules as well.  It&#8217;s truly a case of the blind leading the blind and yet the sect persists &#8211; almost 2000 years and still going. One of my favorites is the &#8220;infallibility&#8221; of the pope. The official rules say that the pope is infallible on issues of morals and doctrines when he issues proclamations with the accord of a magisterial council. The last magisterial council was the Second Vatican Council which concluded during the reign of pope John #6. The pope famously (well, famous in some circles) issued a Papal Bull declaring his personal opinion on the use of prophylactics for birth control. The magesterial council could not agree on anything so the pope stood up and said he believed that it was immoral &#8211; however we must credit that pope with some honesty because in the same declaration he stated that it is his own opinion and that it is up to individuals to make a decision based on their own conscience. The pope John Paul #2 was a voracious liar who attempted to project an image of absolute infallibility, frequently declaring that the use of contraceptives is deemed by the church (not solely by the pope) as immoral. The new pope is also a goddamned liar.</p>
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		<title>
		By: daedalus2u		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512788</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daedalus2u]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512788</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I must agree with Stephanie, to be a skeptic, you must know the limits of your knowledge.  You can&#039;t just &quot;wing it&quot;, (known as making shit up) when you don&#039;t know what you are talking about.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must agree with Stephanie, to be a skeptic, you must know the limits of your knowledge.  You can&#8217;t just &#8220;wing it&#8221;, (known as making shit up) when you don&#8217;t know what you are talking about.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512787</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512787</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Noel, first, I was talking about not knowing the answer about vaccines. Second, you didn&#039;t answer the second question, the one about being skeptical about paper or plastic. I still contend that by the definition you seem to be applying to the religious, you&#039;re not a skeptic either.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noel, first, I was talking about not knowing the answer about vaccines. Second, you didn&#8217;t answer the second question, the one about being skeptical about paper or plastic. I still contend that by the definition you seem to be applying to the religious, you&#8217;re not a skeptic either.</p>
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		<title>
		By: noel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512786</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[noel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512786</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@MS: Your post reminds me of the funniest thing my sister&#039;s ex hubby said: &quot;Just because you&#039;re Catholic doesn&#039;t mean you have to do everything the Pope says!&quot;. I was flabberghasted because I was under the impression that that&#039;s exactly what it means.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MS: Your post reminds me of the funniest thing my sister&#8217;s ex hubby said: &#8220;Just because you&#8217;re Catholic doesn&#8217;t mean you have to do everything the Pope says!&#8221;. I was flabberghasted because I was under the impression that that&#8217;s exactly what it means.</p>
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		By: noel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512785</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[noel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512785</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Previous post was responding to Stephanie, not MS.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Previous post was responding to Stephanie, not MS.</p>
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		<title>
		By: noel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512784</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[noel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512784</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, people who are skeptical of things about which they know very little aren&#039;t really paying attention to the evidence. So they are not &quot;skeptics&quot; by my definition even if it may correctly be said of them that they are skeptical of vaccines. I agree with you that a claim of skepticism should entail significant knowledge of a subject.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, people who are skeptical of things about which they know very little aren&#8217;t really paying attention to the evidence. So they are not &#8220;skeptics&#8221; by my definition even if it may correctly be said of them that they are skeptical of vaccines. I agree with you that a claim of skepticism should entail significant knowledge of a subject.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MadScientist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512783</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MadScientist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512783</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Greg: Yes, Primo Levy.

@pworthen: You are right; we have different notions of skepticism. I do not consider minor changes in religious conduct as being due to skepticism but more utilitarianism. Even the various groups of christians and mohammedans have made numerous such changes over the years. This is why I find Henry&#039;s claim that Judaism is more tolerant of skepticism to be very bizarre and unconnected with reality.  Of course Henry could be comparing more liberal Jewish sects with more fundamentalist sects of other religions, but that is hardly a fair comparison.

One thing I find amusing is how different groups react to new things. Let&#039;s say two migrant groups discover the lobster. Now can the lobster be eaten or is it taboo like mussels? Some decide it is taboo, some decide the taboo is not applicable.  Now according to Henry those different decisions would have arisen from &#039;skepticism&#039;, but he is wrong. Oration is not skepticism. Not to mention many religions have what they consider to be core inviolable beliefs and custom and tradition. For catholics for example the core beliefs are in the Nicaean creed; if you do not believe what is in that creed you are (officially, if not practically) not considered catholic. However if you go against tradition, say you don&#039;t go to church on the feast day of your local patron saint, that&#039;s officially OK even though in practice most of the townsfolk will shun you for a week. So for Henry to claim that people are being skeptical because they make changes to things which they do not really consider of utmost importance is a truly bizarre claim.

[OT] Henry even misrepresents Dawkins by claiming &quot;... The God Delusion is a profoundly misconceived book because it advances, as an axiom, that the existence of God is a hypothesis that can be tested by science.&quot;  That is absolute nonsense; if Henry has read the book at all then he has a severe deficiency in basic english literacy. The claim that Dawkins does make is that the bible is full of claims asserted as facts and science can test those claims and show that they are wrong.  In a similar fashion, religions make many other claims (not necessarily in the bible even if the bible is quoted as the &quot;inspiration&quot;) and many of those claims can be tested and shown to be incorrect. Dawkins does concede that some claims cannot be tested such as the deist claim that there is a god though we must admit we know nothing about him - that contradicts Henry&#039;s ridiculous claim that Dawkins asserts that god is a hypothesis that can be tested by science.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg: Yes, Primo Levy.</p>
<p>@pworthen: You are right; we have different notions of skepticism. I do not consider minor changes in religious conduct as being due to skepticism but more utilitarianism. Even the various groups of christians and mohammedans have made numerous such changes over the years. This is why I find Henry&#8217;s claim that Judaism is more tolerant of skepticism to be very bizarre and unconnected with reality.  Of course Henry could be comparing more liberal Jewish sects with more fundamentalist sects of other religions, but that is hardly a fair comparison.</p>
<p>One thing I find amusing is how different groups react to new things. Let&#8217;s say two migrant groups discover the lobster. Now can the lobster be eaten or is it taboo like mussels? Some decide it is taboo, some decide the taboo is not applicable.  Now according to Henry those different decisions would have arisen from &#8216;skepticism&#8217;, but he is wrong. Oration is not skepticism. Not to mention many religions have what they consider to be core inviolable beliefs and custom and tradition. For catholics for example the core beliefs are in the Nicaean creed; if you do not believe what is in that creed you are (officially, if not practically) not considered catholic. However if you go against tradition, say you don&#8217;t go to church on the feast day of your local patron saint, that&#8217;s officially OK even though in practice most of the townsfolk will shun you for a week. So for Henry to claim that people are being skeptical because they make changes to things which they do not really consider of utmost importance is a truly bizarre claim.</p>
<p>[OT] Henry even misrepresents Dawkins by claiming &#8220;&#8230; The God Delusion is a profoundly misconceived book because it advances, as an axiom, that the existence of God is a hypothesis that can be tested by science.&#8221;  That is absolute nonsense; if Henry has read the book at all then he has a severe deficiency in basic english literacy. The claim that Dawkins does make is that the bible is full of claims asserted as facts and science can test those claims and show that they are wrong.  In a similar fashion, religions make many other claims (not necessarily in the bible even if the bible is quoted as the &#8220;inspiration&#8221;) and many of those claims can be tested and shown to be incorrect. Dawkins does concede that some claims cannot be tested such as the deist claim that there is a god though we must admit we know nothing about him &#8211; that contradicts Henry&#8217;s ridiculous claim that Dawkins asserts that god is a hypothesis that can be tested by science.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512782</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512782</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So, Noel, someone who isn&#039;t sure whether to vaccinate their children because they haven&#039;t done the work to sort out all the conflicting information thrown their way--because they&#039;re ignorant--is still a skeptic? If not, how is that different than you not doing the work to sort out whether paper or plastic bags are better for the environment?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Noel, someone who isn&#8217;t sure whether to vaccinate their children because they haven&#8217;t done the work to sort out all the conflicting information thrown their way&#8211;because they&#8217;re ignorant&#8211;is still a skeptic? If not, how is that different than you not doing the work to sort out whether paper or plastic bags are better for the environment?</p>
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		<title>
		By: noel		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512781</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[noel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512781</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As I understand the term, a skeptic is one who requires evidence for belief, and even then may have doubts. That excludes the religious and the credulous. Stephanie would also exclude the ignorant, which sort of makes sense, but I think is a little beside the point.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand the term, a skeptic is one who requires evidence for belief, and even then may have doubts. That excludes the religious and the credulous. Stephanie would also exclude the ignorant, which sort of makes sense, but I think is a little beside the point.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512780</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/27/science-faith-scepticism-belie/#comment-512780</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[daedalus2u, I can accept that definition of skepticism, but that isn&#039;t the standard that&#039;s being applied to religion by some here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>daedalus2u, I can accept that definition of skepticism, but that isn&#8217;t the standard that&#8217;s being applied to religion by some here.</p>
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