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	Comments on: The meme of honourable death	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/</link>
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		<title>
		By: ReeseGLORIA19		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546467</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ReeseGLORIA19]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546467</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I guess that to get the &lt;a href=&quot;http://goodfinance-blog.com/topics/business-loans&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;business loans&lt;/a&gt; from creditors you must have a firm reason. However, once I&#039;ve got a consolidation loan, because I was willing to buy a car. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that to get the <a href="http://goodfinance-blog.com/topics/business-loans" rel="nofollow">business loans</a> from creditors you must have a firm reason. However, once I&#8217;ve got a consolidation loan, because I was willing to buy a car. </p>
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		<title>
		By: marktime		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546466</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[marktime]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546466</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And to continue the meme, in another war, in the Sudan:

&quot;Weep not my boys, for those who fell, 
They did not flinch nor fear. 
They stood their ground like Englishmen, 
and died at Abu Klea&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And to continue the meme, in another war, in the Sudan:</p>
<p>&#8220;Weep not my boys, for those who fell,<br />
They did not flinch nor fear.<br />
They stood their ground like Englishmen,<br />
and died at Abu Klea&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: marktime		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546465</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[marktime]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546465</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for an interesting topic. I&#039;m off to the Kruger next month for four nights in the bush. Eat your heart out: :-)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for an interesting topic. I&#8217;m off to the Kruger next month for four nights in the bush. Eat your heart out: 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546464</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546464</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[a lurker:  Well, I suppose it all depends on what we mean by &quot;sensless&quot;  (and even as I wrote that I wondered what I was up to...)

Let&#039;s change &quot;senseless&quot; to &quot;Inexplicable and without effect.&quot;  

WW I at least had a large effect on the nature of nations.  The ABW may have had an effect on the nature of colonialism, but mostly a redundant one.

But what I was really thinking was that to which I refer in my comment above.  If you look at European history and imagine it without WWI, do you still get, say WW II?  No. (Probably). If you look at southern African History without the ABW, do you still get Namibia and the war there, Rhodesia&#039;s war, Apartheid, and so on? Yes.  (Probably).  


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a lurker:  Well, I suppose it all depends on what we mean by &#8220;sensless&#8221;  (and even as I wrote that I wondered what I was up to&#8230;)</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s change &#8220;senseless&#8221; to &#8220;Inexplicable and without effect.&#8221;  </p>
<p>WW I at least had a large effect on the nature of nations.  The ABW may have had an effect on the nature of colonialism, but mostly a redundant one.</p>
<p>But what I was really thinking was that to which I refer in my comment above.  If you look at European history and imagine it without WWI, do you still get, say WW II?  No. (Probably). If you look at southern African History without the ABW, do you still get Namibia and the war there, Rhodesia&#8217;s war, Apartheid, and so on? Yes.  (Probably).  </p>
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		<title>
		By: a lurker		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546463</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[a lurker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546463</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;well, the Anglo Boer War may have been the single most senseless war fought in the history of modern Western warfare. &quot;

Even more senseless than WWI?

That is saying a lot.


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;well, the Anglo Boer War may have been the single most senseless war fought in the history of modern Western warfare. &#8221;</p>
<p>Even more senseless than WWI?</p>
<p>That is saying a lot.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546462</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546462</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Marktime:  I&#039;m not sure how it matters, but I count among my very best friends in the world ever, among my close colleagues, and just plain people I like or know and respect, South Africans who are Afrikaner as well as all sorts of other South Africans. (I&#039;ve worked in South Africa for years.) The situation today in South Africa is self consciously divorced (by most people that I know) from the past at a certain level of discourse in order to get some distance and perspective.

I won&#039;t totally disagree with what you said, but but I need to point a couple of things out about your statement to contextualize it more or it could be easily misunderstood.

First, make no mistake that the standing policies and attitudes of Boers in Transvaal and to a (somewhat) lesser extent Orange Free State (those are the two countries fighting with the Brits at the start of the war) and the Cape Colony (a British Colony with lots of Boers in it where some of the fighting happened as well) were not even close to devoid of racist and generally atrocious presumptions. It would be very incorrect to read this as a situation in which the seeds of Apartheid lay dormant and minor and were it not for the British atrocities during the Anglo Boer War they would have never sprouted and flourished. Pretty much all of the policies that were later formalized in the named apartheid government of later times were all in place, and no, they were not just typical &quot;white colonialist&quot; manifestations.  They were a special and rather insidious, not entirely unprecedented but for the late 19th century very much outdated and relatively nefarious version of racism.   

At the same time, it is not true (in case anyone might have thought this from what I just said) that the British invaded Transvaal and OFS for the purpose of overthrowing a racist government. Well, they did actually do that quite explicitly, but the &quot;race problem&quot; that they percieved was the Boer race kicking around the non-Boer white races (mainly bits, but lots of Americans and others too).  (This was explicitly, at the time, supposedly a &quot;white man&#039;s war&quot;).

I don&#039;t see any evidence that the racist oppressive Afrikaner government that grew up during the middle of the 20th century happened because of the AB war. (I&#039;m not necessarily saying that you were suggesting that either.)  The details may have been different, but when I read what the Boers were saying and doing from the earlies days up throgh, say, 1980, is see a more or less straight line with the AB war not turning that line one way or another.  (And I oversimplify only a little!)  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marktime:  I&#8217;m not sure how it matters, but I count among my very best friends in the world ever, among my close colleagues, and just plain people I like or know and respect, South Africans who are Afrikaner as well as all sorts of other South Africans. (I&#8217;ve worked in South Africa for years.) The situation today in South Africa is self consciously divorced (by most people that I know) from the past at a certain level of discourse in order to get some distance and perspective.</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t totally disagree with what you said, but but I need to point a couple of things out about your statement to contextualize it more or it could be easily misunderstood.</p>
<p>First, make no mistake that the standing policies and attitudes of Boers in Transvaal and to a (somewhat) lesser extent Orange Free State (those are the two countries fighting with the Brits at the start of the war) and the Cape Colony (a British Colony with lots of Boers in it where some of the fighting happened as well) were not even close to devoid of racist and generally atrocious presumptions. It would be very incorrect to read this as a situation in which the seeds of Apartheid lay dormant and minor and were it not for the British atrocities during the Anglo Boer War they would have never sprouted and flourished. Pretty much all of the policies that were later formalized in the named apartheid government of later times were all in place, and no, they were not just typical &#8220;white colonialist&#8221; manifestations.  They were a special and rather insidious, not entirely unprecedented but for the late 19th century very much outdated and relatively nefarious version of racism.   </p>
<p>At the same time, it is not true (in case anyone might have thought this from what I just said) that the British invaded Transvaal and OFS for the purpose of overthrowing a racist government. Well, they did actually do that quite explicitly, but the &#8220;race problem&#8221; that they percieved was the Boer race kicking around the non-Boer white races (mainly bits, but lots of Americans and others too).  (This was explicitly, at the time, supposedly a &#8220;white man&#8217;s war&#8221;).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see any evidence that the racist oppressive Afrikaner government that grew up during the middle of the 20th century happened because of the AB war. (I&#8217;m not necessarily saying that you were suggesting that either.)  The details may have been different, but when I read what the Boers were saying and doing from the earlies days up throgh, say, 1980, is see a more or less straight line with the AB war not turning that line one way or another.  (And I oversimplify only a little!)  </p>
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		<title>
		By: marktime		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[marktime]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 04:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sadder still, Greg, was the bitterness carried over from that scorched earth policy. It contaminated Afrikaaner politics allowing an extreme right wing nationalist party to articulate the rage for those past atrocities, leading eventually to a hard right attitude to race, and the rest is history.

Actually, little was learnt in terms of tactics from the ABW, allowing generals (from the aristocracy, of course), to send waves of infantry against well entrenched machine gun positions in WW1 which led to a level of slaughter that is beyond our comprehension today.

BTW, I&#039;m a Brit.who has known the very best of who the  Afrikaaners are.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadder still, Greg, was the bitterness carried over from that scorched earth policy. It contaminated Afrikaaner politics allowing an extreme right wing nationalist party to articulate the rage for those past atrocities, leading eventually to a hard right attitude to race, and the rest is history.</p>
<p>Actually, little was learnt in terms of tactics from the ABW, allowing generals (from the aristocracy, of course), to send waves of infantry against well entrenched machine gun positions in WW1 which led to a level of slaughter that is beyond our comprehension today.</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;m a Brit.who has known the very best of who the  Afrikaaners are.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546460</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546460</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Marktime:  That&#039;s pretty accurate, but only part of the story.

The good news (for the Brits):  It is very easy for it to sound all bad ... the word concentration camp all by itself can do that, although we must remember these were not explicitly extermination camps ... but it is also true that the Boer fighters were at least as responsible for continuing the war as any other factor, and the way they were starting to do this was to disappear back to the farms and just be farmers while someone was looking then to reappear as belligerents.  Looking at it from the British perspective at the time, the blockhouse lines, scorched earth policy, and concentration camps can not really be seen as a purely evil strategy.  

The bad news:  The numbers you give are typical and correct for the WHITE concentration camps.  There were also Black concentration camps, which had far more people in them, were much more enigmatic as to why the even existed, in which far more people probably died, for which there were no advocates at the time, and which are to this day less known about or of than the Boer concentration camps.  

The saddest thing about it all is this:  If you look at why the war started, why it was fought, and how things existed say 20 years after the war ended ... well, the Anglo Boer War may have been the single most senseless war fought in the history of modern Western warfare.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marktime:  That&#8217;s pretty accurate, but only part of the story.</p>
<p>The good news (for the Brits):  It is very easy for it to sound all bad &#8230; the word concentration camp all by itself can do that, although we must remember these were not explicitly extermination camps &#8230; but it is also true that the Boer fighters were at least as responsible for continuing the war as any other factor, and the way they were starting to do this was to disappear back to the farms and just be farmers while someone was looking then to reappear as belligerents.  Looking at it from the British perspective at the time, the blockhouse lines, scorched earth policy, and concentration camps can not really be seen as a purely evil strategy.  </p>
<p>The bad news:  The numbers you give are typical and correct for the WHITE concentration camps.  There were also Black concentration camps, which had far more people in them, were much more enigmatic as to why the even existed, in which far more people probably died, for which there were no advocates at the time, and which are to this day less known about or of than the Boer concentration camps.  </p>
<p>The saddest thing about it all is this:  If you look at why the war started, why it was fought, and how things existed say 20 years after the war ended &#8230; well, the Anglo Boer War may have been the single most senseless war fought in the history of modern Western warfare.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: D. C. Sessions		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546459</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. C. Sessions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546459</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[ChicagoMolly@35:

Yes, that&#039;s how the Powers In Charge put the instinct to use.  I was referring, though, to what I observe which may well be hard-wired into the species.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ChicagoMolly@35:</p>
<p>Yes, that&#8217;s how the Powers In Charge put the instinct to use.  I was referring, though, to what I observe which may well be hard-wired into the species.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ashwin Baindur		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546458</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ashwin Baindur]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/25/the-meme-of-honourable-death/#comment-546458</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Boer War had one interesting result - the futility of the old tactics became apparent and the result was a change in thinking about how war was to be conducted.

One officer, Ernest Swinton, wrote the Defence of Duffer&#039;s Drift 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_Duffer%27s_Drift

a treatise meant to change the way young officer&#039;s approached tactical problems.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Boer War had one interesting result &#8211; the futility of the old tactics became apparent and the result was a change in thinking about how war was to be conducted.</p>
<p>One officer, Ernest Swinton, wrote the Defence of Duffer&#8217;s Drift </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_Duffer%27s_Drift" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_Duffer%27s_Drift</a></p>
<p>a treatise meant to change the way young officer&#8217;s approached tactical problems.</p>
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