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	<title>
	Comments on: Primitive Cultures are Simple, Civilization is Complex (A falsehood) II	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Beetlspurg		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-599750</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Beetlspurg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2018 03:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-599750</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You lost me with your &quot;white privilege&quot; bullshit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You lost me with your &#8220;white privilege&#8221; bullshit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nathan baldwin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546025</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan baldwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 07:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546025</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I could be watching mash reruns but I&#039;m searching anthropology articles on a science website, because I have an intuitive respect for all cultures. But I continually feel insulted by the presumptions you are making about others lives. How could you possibly feel qualified to comment on the complexity of a factory worker&#039;s life when you have never met them? You may believe it, and may be right, but do you realize you are putting off this unpleasant vibe that you are in some measurable, real way, better than others? It doesn&#039;t make for a rewarding read.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could be watching mash reruns but I&#8217;m searching anthropology articles on a science website, because I have an intuitive respect for all cultures. But I continually feel insulted by the presumptions you are making about others lives. How could you possibly feel qualified to comment on the complexity of a factory worker&#8217;s life when you have never met them? You may believe it, and may be right, but do you realize you are putting off this unpleasant vibe that you are in some measurable, real way, better than others? It doesn&#8217;t make for a rewarding read.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nathan baldwin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546024</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan baldwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 07:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546024</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Your sarcastic, patronizing writing style is getting in the way of me enjoying an interesting article.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your sarcastic, patronizing writing style is getting in the way of me enjoying an interesting article.</p>
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		<title>
		By: onix		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546023</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[onix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 03:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546023</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[i think he is right. the ethical implications of a &#039;civilisation&#039; are thus they require blind adoption of the existing hierarchic pattern. that is very close to a total simplification. for lack of anything better to do, the more &#039;simple&#039; society does not appear to cope with such subjective appreciation of reality. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think he is right. the ethical implications of a &#8216;civilisation&#8217; are thus they require blind adoption of the existing hierarchic pattern. that is very close to a total simplification. for lack of anything better to do, the more &#8216;simple&#8217; society does not appear to cope with such subjective appreciation of reality. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Liz		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546022</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546022</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Feh = point + missed X miles]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feh = point + missed X miles</p>
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		<title>
		By: Feh		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546021</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Feh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546021</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The term &quot;primitive&quot; is fine, if it describes something genuinely less derived and you can demonstrate that. The main problem is ascribing the idea of &quot;primitivity&quot; all this extra weight and moral judgement (as people generally do), which is, unfortunely a result of all this stupid &quot;Progressivism&quot; that equates progress and being less derived with the good. (Progressivism is seriously the dumbest ideology ever. Progress can be good or bad. Get. It. Through. Your. Fucking. Heads. That. You. Can&#039;t. Just. Waffle. About. Change. And. Expect. To. Be. Respected.) Another problem is that ascribing any particular feature weight is particularly hard to do, while treating all features as of equal weight just encourages &quot;lumperism&quot; and &quot;splitterism&quot;, so people will just game the &quot;primitive&quot; versus &quot;modern&quot; divide to suit their own society, depending on which they are lionizing.
...

As to the specific thrust of your argument:

First of, it&#039;s interesting that you&#039;re still conflating complexity with good and that the complex life is better and that complex people are better. This is very ideological. Simpler can be better. Complex does not mean interesting or valuable. Is it good to go through some pointless though complex process to achieve an equivalent end? Especially when it does not appear to endow you with any other valuable of interesting qualities? Can you lionize this because it satisfies your arrogant notion of how human beings should be? Division of labour may be smart, rather than dumb. Your response is very normative to a macho Western rugged Individualist ideology (which is ultimately built off ideas of noble savages and such).

You&#039;re also remarkably ungracious and disdainful to people who just push buttons and do other repetitive labour, even though they undoubtably make contributions that you are unable to quantify to letting you live your life as you do. You&#039;re also simultaneously being hugely disdainful of the efforts of the people who let others live who might not be able to under a HG economy. It&#039;s good to know that you value cruelty and callousness so much. Your seem to subscribe to a typical ideology that dehumanises the unskilled laborours of Capitalism. Your arrogance and Privilege is showing Greg! You could&#039;ve used yourself as an example, but then, that would require genuine humility (as opposed than &quot;Duh! I can&#039;t perform socially low ranked manual labor such as taking the trash out. lol@myself.&quot;) and would make simultaneously make apparent the fundamental disingenuousness of your argument.

You&#039;re also an idiot for suggesting a simple model describing Western and Hunter Gatherer (all grouped together) societies as opposed points on a linear correlation (which you know is how the morons who read your blog will read this). They aren&#039;t. 

You&#039;re also making a straw man. Do hunter-gatherers seriously not simplify societies they aren&#039;t part of? Do they not simplify the behaviour of people who aren&#039;t part of their society? Are humans not often chauvinistic and uncaring about foreign societies? I assume your response will be that it&#039;s okay to racially abuse one and caricature iit and not the other because one has &quot;POWER!&quot; and that abuse is a good way to &quot;Speak truth to power!&quot; and all the other creepy and socially retarded muscular liberalism bullshit that justifies them to behave like sadistic little bullies with social sanction.

...

I think it&#039;s appropriate to avoid having a normative value judgement here. In some ways it&#039;s good that Australian Aborgines for example, wander around, farting down tubes and learning much more than we would ever generally need know about and collecting bits of plants and animals they find. That&#039;s an interesting, original way to be human. In other ways it&#039;s good that people in civilizations do the variety of things that they do.

Ultimately, it&#039;s more true to say that agricultural societies are more diverse, and that we do indeed have people in them who effectively approach the level of fairly simplified machines who only perform a very narrow subset of the tasks humans have generally evolved to do well. We also have people who greatly exceed HGs on terms which overlap very strongly with their own.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The term &#8220;primitive&#8221; is fine, if it describes something genuinely less derived and you can demonstrate that. The main problem is ascribing the idea of &#8220;primitivity&#8221; all this extra weight and moral judgement (as people generally do), which is, unfortunely a result of all this stupid &#8220;Progressivism&#8221; that equates progress and being less derived with the good. (Progressivism is seriously the dumbest ideology ever. Progress can be good or bad. Get. It. Through. Your. Fucking. Heads. That. You. Can&#8217;t. Just. Waffle. About. Change. And. Expect. To. Be. Respected.) Another problem is that ascribing any particular feature weight is particularly hard to do, while treating all features as of equal weight just encourages &#8220;lumperism&#8221; and &#8220;splitterism&#8221;, so people will just game the &#8220;primitive&#8221; versus &#8220;modern&#8221; divide to suit their own society, depending on which they are lionizing.<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>As to the specific thrust of your argument:</p>
<p>First of, it&#8217;s interesting that you&#8217;re still conflating complexity with good and that the complex life is better and that complex people are better. This is very ideological. Simpler can be better. Complex does not mean interesting or valuable. Is it good to go through some pointless though complex process to achieve an equivalent end? Especially when it does not appear to endow you with any other valuable of interesting qualities? Can you lionize this because it satisfies your arrogant notion of how human beings should be? Division of labour may be smart, rather than dumb. Your response is very normative to a macho Western rugged Individualist ideology (which is ultimately built off ideas of noble savages and such).</p>
<p>You&#8217;re also remarkably ungracious and disdainful to people who just push buttons and do other repetitive labour, even though they undoubtably make contributions that you are unable to quantify to letting you live your life as you do. You&#8217;re also simultaneously being hugely disdainful of the efforts of the people who let others live who might not be able to under a HG economy. It&#8217;s good to know that you value cruelty and callousness so much. Your seem to subscribe to a typical ideology that dehumanises the unskilled laborours of Capitalism. Your arrogance and Privilege is showing Greg! You could&#8217;ve used yourself as an example, but then, that would require genuine humility (as opposed than &#8220;Duh! I can&#8217;t perform socially low ranked manual labor such as taking the trash out. lol@myself.&#8221;) and would make simultaneously make apparent the fundamental disingenuousness of your argument.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re also an idiot for suggesting a simple model describing Western and Hunter Gatherer (all grouped together) societies as opposed points on a linear correlation (which you know is how the morons who read your blog will read this). They aren&#8217;t. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re also making a straw man. Do hunter-gatherers seriously not simplify societies they aren&#8217;t part of? Do they not simplify the behaviour of people who aren&#8217;t part of their society? Are humans not often chauvinistic and uncaring about foreign societies? I assume your response will be that it&#8217;s okay to racially abuse one and caricature iit and not the other because one has &#8220;POWER!&#8221; and that abuse is a good way to &#8220;Speak truth to power!&#8221; and all the other creepy and socially retarded muscular liberalism bullshit that justifies them to behave like sadistic little bullies with social sanction.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s appropriate to avoid having a normative value judgement here. In some ways it&#8217;s good that Australian Aborgines for example, wander around, farting down tubes and learning much more than we would ever generally need know about and collecting bits of plants and animals they find. That&#8217;s an interesting, original way to be human. In other ways it&#8217;s good that people in civilizations do the variety of things that they do.</p>
<p>Ultimately, it&#8217;s more true to say that agricultural societies are more diverse, and that we do indeed have people in them who effectively approach the level of fairly simplified machines who only perform a very narrow subset of the tasks humans have generally evolved to do well. We also have people who greatly exceed HGs on terms which overlap very strongly with their own.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546020</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546020</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;The individual motives of those people &quot;taking care of it&quot; is profit, but profit did not drive every step of the creation of the framework--at some point crucial parts of the framework had to be opted for&lt;/em&gt;

It is not all profit.  It is also power, other things, including coercion.  The opting is what happens in theory when some people are trying to convince other people to go along with them (because it is the right thing to do) and it is what happens later as part of the post hoc self serving description of what happens. 

In between, whan actually opting in would be actually happening, my assumption is that it is not really happening most of the time . Probably some times.   ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The individual motives of those people &#8220;taking care of it&#8221; is profit, but profit did not drive every step of the creation of the framework&#8211;at some point crucial parts of the framework had to be opted for</em></p>
<p>It is not all profit.  It is also power, other things, including coercion.  The opting is what happens in theory when some people are trying to convince other people to go along with them (because it is the right thing to do) and it is what happens later as part of the post hoc self serving description of what happens. </p>
<p>In between, whan actually opting in would be actually happening, my assumption is that it is not really happening most of the time . Probably some times.   </p>
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		<title>
		By: Joshua Zelinsky		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546019</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joshua Zelinsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546019</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There is some validity to the claim about abstract thought as long as the claim is phrased carefully enough (especially the phrase &quot;abstract thought&quot;). Growing up in a Western civilization prepares one for a different type of thinking in general. An individual growing up in the West will have an easier time doing math. That&#039;s because they&#039;ve been thinking about that class of abstract thoughts since a much younger age. The hunter-gatherer likely has a much better understanding of macroscopic biology than our random Westerner. That&#039;s because that individual has grown up having to think about it. The real problem is not this sort of claim so much as a) making this sort of claim extremely general rather than specific and b) assigning some sort of deep moral or philosophical conclusion as a result of this sort of claim. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is some validity to the claim about abstract thought as long as the claim is phrased carefully enough (especially the phrase &#8220;abstract thought&#8221;). Growing up in a Western civilization prepares one for a different type of thinking in general. An individual growing up in the West will have an easier time doing math. That&#8217;s because they&#8217;ve been thinking about that class of abstract thoughts since a much younger age. The hunter-gatherer likely has a much better understanding of macroscopic biology than our random Westerner. That&#8217;s because that individual has grown up having to think about it. The real problem is not this sort of claim so much as a) making this sort of claim extremely general rather than specific and b) assigning some sort of deep moral or philosophical conclusion as a result of this sort of claim. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Oran Kelley		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546018</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Oran Kelley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546018</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Command economy is like China: where a very small group of people can opt for huge social changes, like the wholesale industrialization of China.

By opt in I mean the people of a society make a more-or-less conscious decision to make such a change. The reason I cal lit opt in is because it involves moving an area of life that was managed informally via custom (like childhood education largely was) to something that is administered through a system--like the government, or some similar kind of institution.

Through many of these opt-ins--in favor of a large public highway system, a national currency, banking regulation, a uniform criminal code, etc., etc--over a long period of time, the institutional framework that allows society as we know it today, with all its differentiation and specialization--is created.

So I can largely ignore what goes into food provision and get on with my writing because I can feel assured that someone else is taking care of most of the food provision business.

The individual motives of those people &quot;taking care of it&quot; is profit, but profit did not drive every step of the creation of the framework--at some point crucial parts of the framework had to be opted for. That is, a &quot;developed economy&quot; is not just an inevitable outgrowth of the profit motive--it has to be opted for.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Command economy is like China: where a very small group of people can opt for huge social changes, like the wholesale industrialization of China.</p>
<p>By opt in I mean the people of a society make a more-or-less conscious decision to make such a change. The reason I cal lit opt in is because it involves moving an area of life that was managed informally via custom (like childhood education largely was) to something that is administered through a system&#8211;like the government, or some similar kind of institution.</p>
<p>Through many of these opt-ins&#8211;in favor of a large public highway system, a national currency, banking regulation, a uniform criminal code, etc., etc&#8211;over a long period of time, the institutional framework that allows society as we know it today, with all its differentiation and specialization&#8211;is created.</p>
<p>So I can largely ignore what goes into food provision and get on with my writing because I can feel assured that someone else is taking care of most of the food provision business.</p>
<p>The individual motives of those people &#8220;taking care of it&#8221; is profit, but profit did not drive every step of the creation of the framework&#8211;at some point crucial parts of the framework had to be opted for. That is, a &#8220;developed economy&#8221; is not just an inevitable outgrowth of the profit motive&#8211;it has to be opted for.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546017</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/22/primitive-cultures-are-simple-1/#comment-546017</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/primitive_cultures_are_simple_2.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;... to be continued continued ....&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/primitive_cultures_are_simple_2.php" rel="nofollow">&#8230; to be continued continued &#8230;.</a></p>
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