Comments on: Acting for the survival of the species (a falsehood) https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/ Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:07:33 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.8 By: Camels With Hammers https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543804 Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:07:33 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543804

Thank you for writing this series!! This one was one of my favorites. For some people, it’s hard to admit that we are always just being selfish.

I’m not sure how you mean this but said like this you are also speaking in a misleading or confused way. We are not “always just being selfish” in a psychological sense by any means. The issue is that the behavior that puts ourselves is neutral or risky for us while benefiting others in many cases has an evolutionary advantage that has led to our tendency to act that way being selected. But that tendency to act that way is what many of us really, genuinely, psychologically feel inclined by when we have altruistic mindsets. It’s just that the altruistic mindset was “selfishly” advantageous enough for the genes of those with that altruistic psychological mindset that that altruistic mindset has been to a certain extent selected.

To project into a simplified evolutionary story, at some point there could have been humans who genuinely didn’t care enough to risk for others in any circumstances and those who genuinely did care enough to risk (at least in certain contexts). When the genuine desire to risk in the rights sorts of contexts (like for close kin) proved advantageous for propagating the genes of those with that genuinely felt desire and those with no feeling of desire to risk led to less successful propagation of genes, those with the genuine desire kept propagating that genuine desire. The only thing “selfish” about our normal set of evolutionarily fit altruistic inclinations is that it turned out to be to our ultimate biological advantage to have them and that that accounts for why we and not our sociopathic cousins predominate. But this does not mean that I need to know that my every altruistic inclination is *really* deep down selfish. I was bred to have the inclination because of its ultimate utility to my ancestors (and likely to me) but I still am motivated by it on a first-order level by a genuine interest in it.

I belabor this point here .

]]> By: Jim Thomerson https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543803 Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:18:20 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543803 Well, let me discuss something I do know about. As a young person in the Texas Hill Coountry, during deer season, I would take my 22 and go out in the pasture deer hunting. I would go about an hour before dark, work upwind, moving very slow, making no quick motions, stopping every 10 steps or so to carefully look around. Even so, the deer would usually detect me before I saw them. One would give a loud snort, all the white tails would go up, and they were out of there. So much for deer hunting that day. Occasionally, I would be successful, and get a clear heart shot. My hunting method was not very productive, but is more fun and challenging than putting out some corn and harvesting deer from a stand.

]]> By: Jim Thomerson https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543802 Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:36:08 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543802 I don’t know which (if any) bird species have sentry birds while the flock is feeding. I do see mixed species feeding flocks and wonder if the various component species contibute sentrys. Is there a bird behavior student in the house?

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543801 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:16:22 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543801 What species are you talking about?

]]> By: Jim Thomerson https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543800 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:00:24 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543800 I don’t recall where I got the idea sentry birds do not lose out on foraging. I pose the testable hypothesis that sentry birds already have full crops when they pull sentry duty.

]]> By: travc https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543799 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:49 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543799 Greg, do you happen to have a ref for that Meerkat study?

I’ve been digging through a lot of alarm calling lit recently, and group selection as the main factor is pretty much ruled out in the cases with actual data. Nepotism towards direct offspring is supported in several species… suggesting Meerkats, prairie dogs, etc might be optimizing based on a slightly broader kin selection (though I don’t know the data there).

Sherman (1977) had a good turn of phrase: [under certain hypotheses] “alarm calls are phenotypically but not genotypically altruistic.”

PS: Shelly & Blumstein (2005) did a phylogenetic analysis of alarm calling in a bunch of rodent species. Being diurnal is much more closely associated with alarm calling than being social. It looks like alarm calling evolved in diurnal rodents, some of which then went on to evolve sociality. Signaling “I see you” to potential predators seems like the most plausible evolutionary origin.

PPS: The ‘cost’ of being a sentry is almost certainly not increased risk of predation for most species. However, sentries aren’t out foraging for themselves and being alert may incur some additional metabolic costs.

]]> By: doug l https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543798 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:46:22 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543798 Good one. Lately it’s all been about the polar bears. Oh, here’s another good one: mountains “thrusting up” through the earth’s crust. I once spent time explaining how it was an illusion and that erosion was what took everything but the harder pointy bits we see. Their response: “Oh, I like my description better as it captures the sacredness of creation better.” Wah!

]]> By: Jeff Rogers https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543797 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:14:45 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543797 Thank you for writing this series!! This one was one of my favorites. For some people, it’s hard to admit that we are always just being selfish.

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543796 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:50:17 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543796 Usually, the sentry either gets inclusive fitness benefits or is punished for not being a sentry, depending on species.

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543795 Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:25:13 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/02/acting-for-the-survival-of-the/#comment-543795 Actually, I think Meerkats are not acting in an inclusive fitness model based on a recently done study. Surprising, but this seems to be the case.

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