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	Comments on: U.S. Chamber of Commerce takes AGW Denialism Stance	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:56:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Lamb		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543200</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Lamb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543200</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I wonder if the &quot;public debate&quot; they want is something like the health care &quot;debate&quot; we currently have.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the &#8220;public debate&#8221; they want is something like the health care &#8220;debate&#8221; we currently have.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Virgil Samms		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543199</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Virgil Samms]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543199</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
From the NYTimes article: &lt;i&gt;The U.S. Chamber of Commerce filed a 21-page petition with EPA today, asking the agency to approve an on-the-record proceeding with an independent trier of fact who would allow EPA and environmental and business groups to engage in a &quot;credible weighing&quot; of the scientific evidence that global warming endangers human health.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
An &quot;&lt;i&gt;independent trier of fact&lt;/i&gt;&quot; - sure. We could give it a snappy title, too, such as &lt;b&gt;IPCC&lt;/b&gt;.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
From the NYTimes article: <i>The U.S. Chamber of Commerce filed a 21-page petition with EPA today, asking the agency to approve an on-the-record proceeding with an independent trier of fact who would allow EPA and environmental and business groups to engage in a &#8220;credible weighing&#8221; of the scientific evidence that global warming endangers human health.</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>An &#8220;<i>independent trier of fact</i>&#8221; &#8211; sure. We could give it a snappy title, too, such as <b>IPCC</b>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: NoFear		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543198</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NoFear]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 03:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543198</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;They simply don&#039;t have the science.&quot;!!!

What? I recall reading a rather long report by the IPCC that was filled with science. Just about every reputable scientist I have heard speak on the issue has had a pretty bleak outlook on climate change and definitely atribute the coming problems to man. Remember these are mainly the people who think we don&#039;t have the science for evolution by natural selection either. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They simply don&#8217;t have the science.&#8221;!!!</p>
<p>What? I recall reading a rather long report by the IPCC that was filled with science. Just about every reputable scientist I have heard speak on the issue has had a pretty bleak outlook on climate change and definitely atribute the coming problems to man. Remember these are mainly the people who think we don&#8217;t have the science for evolution by natural selection either. </p>
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		<title>
		By: MadScientist		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543197</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MadScientist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543197</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@D.C.Sessions:  Yes, that would be interesting.  &quot;Don&#039;t comply with a court order or I&#039;ll sue you!&quot;  However the court did not order the EPA to create regulations on CO2, the court ruled that the EPA does have the authority to do so and therefore should do so if they must to protect the environment and population.

It&#039;s a tricky situation to be in; if nothing effective is done then there will be damage.  How much damage and when? No one knows - it&#039;s pure speculation. The Chamber of Commerce is basically saying &quot;don&#039;t do anything until we&#039;re suffering the effects and have some idea of how bad it&#039;s really going to be.&quot;  I&#039;d expect that because the Chamber of Commerce is only interested in protecting short-term gains; they genuinely couldn&#039;t care less that they&#039;ve put their necks in a noose especially since the worst effects are expected in some future date beyond the individuals&#039; expected lifetimes.

However, despite speculation on what damage will occur, how much and when, we can be absolutely certain of a number of things: more CO2 = warmer atmosphere, humans are responsible for essentially 100% of the increase in CO2, warmer atmosphere = farms need to move about to find climates best suited for their crops/animals.  Not every farm can simply change crops; some may become entirely unviable for agriculture.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@D.C.Sessions:  Yes, that would be interesting.  &#8220;Don&#8217;t comply with a court order or I&#8217;ll sue you!&#8221;  However the court did not order the EPA to create regulations on CO2, the court ruled that the EPA does have the authority to do so and therefore should do so if they must to protect the environment and population.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a tricky situation to be in; if nothing effective is done then there will be damage.  How much damage and when? No one knows &#8211; it&#8217;s pure speculation. The Chamber of Commerce is basically saying &#8220;don&#8217;t do anything until we&#8217;re suffering the effects and have some idea of how bad it&#8217;s really going to be.&#8221;  I&#8217;d expect that because the Chamber of Commerce is only interested in protecting short-term gains; they genuinely couldn&#8217;t care less that they&#8217;ve put their necks in a noose especially since the worst effects are expected in some future date beyond the individuals&#8217; expected lifetimes.</p>
<p>However, despite speculation on what damage will occur, how much and when, we can be absolutely certain of a number of things: more CO2 = warmer atmosphere, humans are responsible for essentially 100% of the increase in CO2, warmer atmosphere = farms need to move about to find climates best suited for their crops/animals.  Not every farm can simply change crops; some may become entirely unviable for agriculture.</p>
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		<title>
		By: D. C. Sessions		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543196</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. C. Sessions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 20:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543196</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wakey, wakey, CC!

That trial was held a few years ago, and you missed it.  Suing the EPA for complying with a Federal Court order affirmed by the United States Supreme Court isn&#039;t going to go very far.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wakey, wakey, CC!</p>
<p>That trial was held a few years ago, and you missed it.  Suing the EPA for complying with a Federal Court order affirmed by the United States Supreme Court isn&#8217;t going to go very far.</p>
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		<title>
		By: djfav		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543195</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djfav]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543195</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Suppose I should get off my lazy duff and post the link to the LA Times story. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-climate-trial25-2009aug25,0,901567.story&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose I should get off my lazy duff and post the link to the LA Times story. <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-climate-trial25-2009aug25,0,901567.story" rel="nofollow">Here</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543194</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543194</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Best quote from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/08/25/25climatewire-chamber-threatens-lawsuit-if-epa-rejects-cli-62828.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NY Times article&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Kovacs envisions the EPA proceeding as a modern-day &quot;Scopes Monkey Trial,&quot; where the science of global warming -- rather than evolution versus creationism -- would be debated. The 1925 trial, which pitted prominent defense attorney Clarence Darrow against three-time presidential candidate Williams Jennings Bryan, centered on the prosecution of John Scopes for violating a Tennessee law by teaching evolution in a high school classroom.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, I&#039;m thinking that&#039;s exactly what he wants, given how the Scopes trial turned out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Best quote from the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/08/25/25climatewire-chamber-threatens-lawsuit-if-epa-rejects-cli-62828.html" rel="nofollow">NY Times article</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Kovacs envisions the EPA proceeding as a modern-day &#8220;Scopes Monkey Trial,&#8221; where the science of global warming &#8212; rather than evolution versus creationism &#8212; would be debated. The 1925 trial, which pitted prominent defense attorney Clarence Darrow against three-time presidential candidate Williams Jennings Bryan, centered on the prosecution of John Scopes for violating a Tennessee law by teaching evolution in a high school classroom.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m thinking that&#8217;s exactly what he wants, given how the Scopes trial turned out.</p>
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		<title>
		By: djfav		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543193</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djfav]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/25/us-chamber-of-commerce-takes-a/#comment-543193</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Just found out about this, too. The comparison to Scopes in the LA Times is patently absurd.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just found out about this, too. The comparison to Scopes in the LA Times is patently absurd.</p>
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