Comments on: When the big cat eats the black man https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/ Sun, 23 Aug 2009 09:23:53 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.8 By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542702 Sun, 23 Aug 2009 09:23:53 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542702 my grandchildren are growing up in a far more integrated society and that many of the existing attitudes will die with their holders within the next twenty years or so.

That is exactly my feeling as well. I don’t think I”m arguing anything here that you are not, except that I have the sense that you would prefer not to have the matter discussed as much as I feel it should be. But perhaps I’ve gussed at your view incorrectly. In any event, thanks very much for the thoughtful comments.

]]> By: marktime https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542701 Sun, 23 Aug 2009 07:02:03 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542701 But what is being argued here? The judiciary in South Africa is now composed of judges from both Afican and European heritage so racial bias may or may not have played a part in the recent judgement but is now much more unlikely than say 50 years ago. The question here then is, was the law upheld? There is one man with a 15 year jail sentence convicted of the murder serving time. Scott-Crossely could not be pinned to the murder and cannot be judged on his racist thoughts when he threw what he probably thought was a POS to the lions.

That his actions were despicable goes without saying and racist is most likely probable but he stated that that was not the case so then he can only be charged for improper disposal of human remains. Which is what happened and he was jailed. You can argue that he should have got a stiffer sentence but that is a different question. If the law now states that he is entitled to parole then that is what should happen. The law is there to protect us all and vengance from your POV (and we are seeing a lot of that kind of reasoning with the release of Abdel al Magrehi) is not a basis for a just society.

And yes, I would agree that racist overtones still exist in many parts of South Africa amongst Afrikaner and English speaking communities but my sense is that my grandchildren are growing up in a far more integrated society and that many of the existing attitudes will die with their holders within the next twenty years or so.

The morons watching the thief getting torn to pieces are the equivalent of the people in the Southern States of the USA lynching a black man in public. It’s my opinion that both population groups were lied to in order to maintain a subjugated work force of cheap day labour.

The group that most profited from apartheid had their shares listed on the the world’s stock exchanges.

]]> By: travc https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542700 Sun, 23 Aug 2009 06:38:44 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542700 Greg… What, no bite on the “death by stupid” = deserved sociological angle? Especially the native vs non-native dichotomy. I’m quite curious what someone with actual relevant knowledge thinks 😉

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542699 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:22:50 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542699 Jeremy, good point, but there had been a prior jury trial that came to a different conclusion. Usually, an appellate judge tosses something out for something other than having an utterly different interpretation of the evidence.

Trust me on this, I’m practically a lawyer. In fact, I think I’ll just start calling myself a lawyer. I did live in law school dorms with Barack Obama for a semester, according to rumor… (Unfounded rumors, no doubt)

]]> By: Jeremy https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542698 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:18:04 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542698 @MadScientist; That’s speculation, and in the case of the law, it’s not allowed and the benefit goes to the accused if details are unclear. Without seeing the entire court records, it’s foolish to say that the judge got things wrong. It’s the same as disagreeing with a claim scientists make without reading the peer reviewed article, or even the abstract. The judge spent probably a couple of days looking at evidence and came to a conclusion. You’ve spent 5 minutes looking at a very brief report of the outcome without seeing any evidence and think he’s wrong.

That’s not to say he necessarily made the right decision in this case, but I don’t think people who haven’t at least heard what the defence argued and what evidence they had to support them are in a position to make any kind of meaningful criticism of the judgement.

]]> By: Greg Laden https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542697 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 19:01:19 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542697 Was it racist? I tried to avoid the most blatant approach, I did not provide direct quotes of how the story was told. And I’d rather not. Just trust me on this one.

Adria, thanks. Funny, I was just looking at your blog this AM!

]]> By: MadScientist https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542696 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:53:03 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542696 Stupid judge – what a lame claim. If the man were dead before he was thrown into the lion’s cage then the man was still murdered. The man didn’t die of natural causes.

]]> By: travc https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542695 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:11:02 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542695 For a slightly contrarian view…
Why should this event invoke racism? Yeah, South Africa, so the odds are in your favor. But just suspend disbelief for a few moments and ignore race.

Putting a person in a cage with big cats is murder regardless of race. Feeding a human corpse to big cats is quite wrong (at least without some pretty damn explicit instructions in a will and some neigh-impossible to acquire permits.)

For the case of the robber, there are several cultures (sub-cultures at least) I can think of where death by stupidity, especially stupidity with respect to ‘natural’ hazards iconic in the culture, is considered quite just. There may (or may not) be a racial component there… natives are held to a higher standard (they “should know these things”), but “native” isn’t necessarily racially based.
Anyway, two words: Darwin Award

]]> By: Adria Richards, ButYoureAGirl.com https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542694 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:45:06 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542694 Greg,

Thank you for sharing your insights on this. It is always great to read about your experiences traveling the globe. I’m glad you’re not afraid to speak up about racism and inequality.

Carry on enlightened scientist!

]]> By: Anne Gilbert https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542693 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:36:08 +0000 http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/22/when-the-big-cat-eats-the-blac-1/#comment-542693 I’m not entirely sure what to say about this, other than that, at the time, I was appalled to hear of this incident. Things in South Africa are precarious enough, without some self-righteous idiot throwing another idiot with a different skin color to hungry lions. I mean, there really are better ways of dealing with this kind of idiocy, on both sides. As for the “racial” attitudes, I suspect they’re still fairly widespread, although I also think the current governments and others are doing their best to change things. I’ve talked to people from SA(white) who have such attitudes, though they tend to come out rather subtly, rahter than directly. It makes you wonder.

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