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	Comments on: Falsehood: A baby is not the biological offspring of its adoptive mother.	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Kyle		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542636</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 09:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542636</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, biology and genetics are not the same. But maybe the word biological can mean something different in that one very specific term &quot;biological mother.&quot; It&#039;s simply a term to distinguish a person who actually raises you from a person who contributed genes and/or a womb. People are comfortable using it, so why ask them to change it? Why not instead just educate them as to the sort of biological connection an adoptive mother has to her adoptive child?

I actually got into a discussion about the word psychology vs. psychologist. When you say psychologist, you&#039;re not just talking about anyone who practices psychology. Psychiatry is a branch of psychology, and yet you wouldn&#039;t call a psychiatrist a psychologist. A psychologist has a specific job that could be called a general psychologist. So the meaning of psychology is getting twisted a little in this context.

So why can&#039;t biological mother mean genetic mother or birth mother in this context? You don&#039;t have to tell people they&#039;re confusing biology with genetics because we&#039;re not necessarily talking about biology or genetics as a whole. We&#039;re just using a specific term to mean a specific thing. I for one have never even heard the term genetic mother until now. I understand that you think saying someone isn&#039;t a biological mother sort of cheapens the job, but it doesn&#039;t have to be that way. Everyone I know understands that the adoptive mom is the &quot;real&quot; mom and the important one. Saying biological mom is just a matter of clarity and distinction.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, biology and genetics are not the same. But maybe the word biological can mean something different in that one very specific term &#8220;biological mother.&#8221; It&#8217;s simply a term to distinguish a person who actually raises you from a person who contributed genes and/or a womb. People are comfortable using it, so why ask them to change it? Why not instead just educate them as to the sort of biological connection an adoptive mother has to her adoptive child?</p>
<p>I actually got into a discussion about the word psychology vs. psychologist. When you say psychologist, you&#8217;re not just talking about anyone who practices psychology. Psychiatry is a branch of psychology, and yet you wouldn&#8217;t call a psychiatrist a psychologist. A psychologist has a specific job that could be called a general psychologist. So the meaning of psychology is getting twisted a little in this context.</p>
<p>So why can&#8217;t biological mother mean genetic mother or birth mother in this context? You don&#8217;t have to tell people they&#8217;re confusing biology with genetics because we&#8217;re not necessarily talking about biology or genetics as a whole. We&#8217;re just using a specific term to mean a specific thing. I for one have never even heard the term genetic mother until now. I understand that you think saying someone isn&#8217;t a biological mother sort of cheapens the job, but it doesn&#8217;t have to be that way. Everyone I know understands that the adoptive mom is the &#8220;real&#8221; mom and the important one. Saying biological mom is just a matter of clarity and distinction.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Collin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542635</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Collin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542635</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;If we fully insert the male into this set of scenarios&quot;

When I first saw this phrase, I assumed it was just an oddity. But then I saw you saying that the only way to understand your post, and to avoid being called a misogynist, is to read a book. This is obviously some sort of twisted advert campaign for Hrdy.

If I wanted to be told to read a book before I can express my opinion, I&#039;d still be going for weekly prayers at the Synagogue.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we fully insert the male into this set of scenarios&#8221;</p>
<p>When I first saw this phrase, I assumed it was just an oddity. But then I saw you saying that the only way to understand your post, and to avoid being called a misogynist, is to read a book. This is obviously some sort of twisted advert campaign for Hrdy.</p>
<p>If I wanted to be told to read a book before I can express my opinion, I&#8217;d still be going for weekly prayers at the Synagogue.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sharon Astyk		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542634</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon Astyk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542634</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m torn a little on this one.  This would permit me to describe my step-mother (my mother&#039;s partner for 31 years, since I was 7) as my biological mother, which I think would be lovely.  My step-mother is the single most beloved of my family, and suffers, I think from a long-standing inferiority complex, in which she is not fully &quot;real&quot; - this was, I&#039;m sure, not helped by my sisters and I screaming that point at her at some moment or other during each adolescence.  Given that she tended my biological processes for decades, and now grandmothers my children and tends theirs, I like it a lot.

And I think Greg and Hrdy&#039;s points are both true and important.

That said, I think there&#039;s a case against attempting to overturn a popular language that has returned a reasonably satisfactory solution to complex problems - &quot;Dad&quot; and &quot;Biological Dad&quot; may not be as perfectly accurate as &quot;Dad&quot; and &quot;Genetic Dad&quot; but they serve their purpose fairly well, applying the modifier to the person who needs it the most - a shift away from the old scenarios in which the modifier (step, adoptive, etc...) was applied to the person who did the primary parenting.  Moreover, biological is useful for those many complicated grey areas in which the only thing you want to establish is *not* a genetic relationship. 

For example, my niece, adopted from Vietnam, was raised for the first three years of her life, before she was handed to the orphanage, by her genetic mother.  The raising was probably pretty awful - thankfully she doesn&#039;t remember, and we know drugs and alcohol were pretty seriously involved, but her contribution was not simply genetic.  And a terrible upbringing does not erase her mother&#039;s attempts to tend her.  In most cases other than a pure sperm donor or &quot;we gave up the baby 10 minutes after birth&quot; the parents shared in some biological care at some point - maybe badly, maybe well.  &quot;Biological&quot; seems like a better word to describe this complexity, to me at least, than &quot;Genetic&quot; in cases where there are blurry lines.

BTW, thanks for the kind link re: goats - no room to thank you there.  Let me know how many to put you down for ;-).

Sharon ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m torn a little on this one.  This would permit me to describe my step-mother (my mother&#8217;s partner for 31 years, since I was 7) as my biological mother, which I think would be lovely.  My step-mother is the single most beloved of my family, and suffers, I think from a long-standing inferiority complex, in which she is not fully &#8220;real&#8221; &#8211; this was, I&#8217;m sure, not helped by my sisters and I screaming that point at her at some moment or other during each adolescence.  Given that she tended my biological processes for decades, and now grandmothers my children and tends theirs, I like it a lot.</p>
<p>And I think Greg and Hrdy&#8217;s points are both true and important.</p>
<p>That said, I think there&#8217;s a case against attempting to overturn a popular language that has returned a reasonably satisfactory solution to complex problems &#8211; &#8220;Dad&#8221; and &#8220;Biological Dad&#8221; may not be as perfectly accurate as &#8220;Dad&#8221; and &#8220;Genetic Dad&#8221; but they serve their purpose fairly well, applying the modifier to the person who needs it the most &#8211; a shift away from the old scenarios in which the modifier (step, adoptive, etc&#8230;) was applied to the person who did the primary parenting.  Moreover, biological is useful for those many complicated grey areas in which the only thing you want to establish is *not* a genetic relationship. </p>
<p>For example, my niece, adopted from Vietnam, was raised for the first three years of her life, before she was handed to the orphanage, by her genetic mother.  The raising was probably pretty awful &#8211; thankfully she doesn&#8217;t remember, and we know drugs and alcohol were pretty seriously involved, but her contribution was not simply genetic.  And a terrible upbringing does not erase her mother&#8217;s attempts to tend her.  In most cases other than a pure sperm donor or &#8220;we gave up the baby 10 minutes after birth&#8221; the parents shared in some biological care at some point &#8211; maybe badly, maybe well.  &#8220;Biological&#8221; seems like a better word to describe this complexity, to me at least, than &#8220;Genetic&#8221; in cases where there are blurry lines.</p>
<p>BTW, thanks for the kind link re: goats &#8211; no room to thank you there.  Let me know how many to put you down for ;-).</p>
<p>Sharon </p>
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		<title>
		By: VHM		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542633</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VHM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542633</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s actually the industry itself that&#039;s driving the usage. The term &quot;birth mother&quot; purposely sets up a pregnant woman to think of herself as merely a gestating (biological) vessel. (The agencies don&#039;t make money if a first mom decides to raise her own baby.) If you&#039;re interested in learning about the early history of the U.S. adoption industry, an easy and yet illuminating read would be Barbara Bisantz Raymond&#039;s &quot;The Baby Thief: The Untold Story of Georgia Tann, the Baby Seller Who Corrupted Adoption.&quot;

Meanwhile....I appreciate your distinction between confusing and challenging. I guess I was looking at it from the POV of the average person who has little scientific knowledge. In some cases, people will admit to fear of the unknown with regard to science. Some are even proud of the fact that they are ignorant of scientific &quot;beliefs.&quot; Could you really get such people to wrap their heads around the idea that biology isn&#039;t just genes? Or is this concept meant solely for more educated laypeople?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s actually the industry itself that&#8217;s driving the usage. The term &#8220;birth mother&#8221; purposely sets up a pregnant woman to think of herself as merely a gestating (biological) vessel. (The agencies don&#8217;t make money if a first mom decides to raise her own baby.) If you&#8217;re interested in learning about the early history of the U.S. adoption industry, an easy and yet illuminating read would be Barbara Bisantz Raymond&#8217;s &#8220;The Baby Thief: The Untold Story of Georgia Tann, the Baby Seller Who Corrupted Adoption.&#8221;</p>
<p>Meanwhile&#8230;.I appreciate your distinction between confusing and challenging. I guess I was looking at it from the POV of the average person who has little scientific knowledge. In some cases, people will admit to fear of the unknown with regard to science. Some are even proud of the fact that they are ignorant of scientific &#8220;beliefs.&#8221; Could you really get such people to wrap their heads around the idea that biology isn&#8217;t just genes? Or is this concept meant solely for more educated laypeople?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542632</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542632</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;because your theoretical point about *both* being biological mothers would be confusing to put into practice in real life.&lt;/em&gt;

Not confusing. Challenging.  

Throughout all of this discussion, &quot;mother&quot; is being used for more than one thing.  It isn&#039;t the only word that could have subtle or complex meanings.

It is interesting that while &quot;birth mother&quot; is considered in at least part of the adoption industry to be the inappropriate word to use, it is in fact the word that is almost always used. Why has the industry been so ineffective in getting this changed? ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>because your theoretical point about *both* being biological mothers would be confusing to put into practice in real life.</em></p>
<p>Not confusing. Challenging.  </p>
<p>Throughout all of this discussion, &#8220;mother&#8221; is being used for more than one thing.  It isn&#8217;t the only word that could have subtle or complex meanings.</p>
<p>It is interesting that while &#8220;birth mother&#8221; is considered in at least part of the adoption industry to be the inappropriate word to use, it is in fact the word that is almost always used. Why has the industry been so ineffective in getting this changed? </p>
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		<title>
		By: VHM		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542631</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VHM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542631</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg, sorry: I wasn&#039;t trying to make a huge deal of it, but then I felt I had to answer the snide response.

Originally, I was responding to the point made several times in the comments above that people believed the use of the term &quot;birth&quot; mother obviated the need to use &quot;biological&quot; mother at all, because your theoretical point about *both* being biological mothers would be confusing to put into practice in real life.

The term &quot;birth&quot; mother is considered offensive and discriminatory by many in the adoption triad, so I just wanted to point that out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, sorry: I wasn&#8217;t trying to make a huge deal of it, but then I felt I had to answer the snide response.</p>
<p>Originally, I was responding to the point made several times in the comments above that people believed the use of the term &#8220;birth&#8221; mother obviated the need to use &#8220;biological&#8221; mother at all, because your theoretical point about *both* being biological mothers would be confusing to put into practice in real life.</p>
<p>The term &#8220;birth&#8221; mother is considered offensive and discriminatory by many in the adoption triad, so I just wanted to point that out.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542630</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542630</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[VHM, Thanks for the interest, and your point is correct but only in the context that Karla points out, not so much in the public discourse. This discussion of &lt;em&gt;falsehoods&lt;/em&gt; is not meant to explore the context of thoughtful understanding, good training, appropriate education, and generally proper use of the term.  This is true of all of the falsehoods. In  all cases, there are people using the terminology or concepts &quot;correctly.&quot;  

First Mother is an old term that goes way back before being replaced with &quot;birth mother.&quot;  Later, people decided they didn&#039;t like that term and switched back.  This post, however, is about the term &quot;biological mother.&quot;  

So, what is this secret intrigue regarding Karla and vhm?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VHM, Thanks for the interest, and your point is correct but only in the context that Karla points out, not so much in the public discourse. This discussion of <em>falsehoods</em> is not meant to explore the context of thoughtful understanding, good training, appropriate education, and generally proper use of the term.  This is true of all of the falsehoods. In  all cases, there are people using the terminology or concepts &#8220;correctly.&#8221;  </p>
<p>First Mother is an old term that goes way back before being replaced with &#8220;birth mother.&#8221;  Later, people decided they didn&#8217;t like that term and switched back.  This post, however, is about the term &#8220;biological mother.&#8221;  </p>
<p>So, what is this secret intrigue regarding Karla and vhm?</p>
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		<title>
		By: VHM		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542629</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VHM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542629</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Karla,

It&#039;s only obscure to people who haven&#039;t done research into the subject. Among adoptees, first parents, and adoptive and prospective adoptive parents who have ventured beyond what the adoption agencies say in their FAQs, it&#039;s actually quite well known.

Come to think of it, that spelling variant on your name seems familiar. If you are who I think you are, you&#039;re playing a little game here, and you know it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karla,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s only obscure to people who haven&#8217;t done research into the subject. Among adoptees, first parents, and adoptive and prospective adoptive parents who have ventured beyond what the adoption agencies say in their FAQs, it&#8217;s actually quite well known.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, that spelling variant on your name seems familiar. If you are who I think you are, you&#8217;re playing a little game here, and you know it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karla		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542628</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542628</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[VHM, that is very, very obscure.  The problem is hardly &quot;solved&quot; excepting in a flippant and trivial way.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VHM, that is very, very obscure.  The problem is hardly &#8220;solved&#8221; excepting in a flippant and trivial way.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: VHM		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542627</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VHM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/19/falsehood-a-baby-is-not-the-bi/#comment-542627</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg, just so you know: among the other two-thirds of the adoption triad, the preferred term is &quot;first mother&quot; and &quot;first father,&quot; not &quot;biological&quot; or &quot;birth&quot; parent. Problem solved, by the actual in-group.

Elf Eye, your post was wonderful to read. Unfortunately (as you probably know), your insightful perception is still the minority opinion.

I nearly died of a genetically inherited disorder, because there are so many general symptoms that none of my doctors could figure out what exactly was wrong for several years. Turns out, almost every one of my genetic relatives on one side of the family suffer from the same disorder. Now THAT&#039;s biology.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, just so you know: among the other two-thirds of the adoption triad, the preferred term is &#8220;first mother&#8221; and &#8220;first father,&#8221; not &#8220;biological&#8221; or &#8220;birth&#8221; parent. Problem solved, by the actual in-group.</p>
<p>Elf Eye, your post was wonderful to read. Unfortunately (as you probably know), your insightful perception is still the minority opinion.</p>
<p>I nearly died of a genetically inherited disorder, because there are so many general symptoms that none of my doctors could figure out what exactly was wrong for several years. Turns out, almost every one of my genetic relatives on one side of the family suffer from the same disorder. Now THAT&#8217;s biology.</p>
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