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	Comments on: The problem with appeasement of creationists is &#8230;	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Yoder		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541155</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yoder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541155</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, so what is really going on here is a doctrinal debate amongst Christians, right? There are certainly Christian traditions that defer to empirical evidence on questions like the age of the Earth, and there are traditions that don&#039;t. In that sense, the approach NCSE takes poses a bigger threat to the literalists than the more anti-theist science advocates do -- it might create more of the kind of Christians who &lt;i&gt;never donate to the Discovery Institute&lt;/i&gt;.

So it&#039;s only natural for Luskin to try to redefine &quot;not the same kind of Christian as me&quot; as &quot;not Christian.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, so what is really going on here is a doctrinal debate amongst Christians, right? There are certainly Christian traditions that defer to empirical evidence on questions like the age of the Earth, and there are traditions that don&#8217;t. In that sense, the approach NCSE takes poses a bigger threat to the literalists than the more anti-theist science advocates do &#8212; it might create more of the kind of Christians who <i>never donate to the Discovery Institute</i>.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s only natural for Luskin to try to redefine &#8220;not the same kind of Christian as me&#8221; as &#8220;not Christian.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joshua Zelinsky		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joshua Zelinsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems that Luskin isn&#039;t going to be happy as long as evolution threatens a single Christian tradition. What would he do if Scott had been talking about geocentrists or flat-earthers? 

Incidentally regarding Greg&#039;s response to BAllanJ&#039;s remark: there&#039;s a more serious point there: a lot of individuals have an essentially distorted way of what sort of quoting is acceptable and how much context is necessary to preserve meaning. That&#039;s what I think BAllan is getting at. In many cases, they are so used to using what amounts to quote-mining as a form of reasoning (generally called using &quot;proof-texts&quot;) that there is a an attitude/belief that such quoting is valid and is an effective way of arguing. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that Luskin isn&#8217;t going to be happy as long as evolution threatens a single Christian tradition. What would he do if Scott had been talking about geocentrists or flat-earthers? </p>
<p>Incidentally regarding Greg&#8217;s response to BAllanJ&#8217;s remark: there&#8217;s a more serious point there: a lot of individuals have an essentially distorted way of what sort of quoting is acceptable and how much context is necessary to preserve meaning. That&#8217;s what I think BAllan is getting at. In many cases, they are so used to using what amounts to quote-mining as a form of reasoning (generally called using &#8220;proof-texts&#8221;) that there is a an attitude/belief that such quoting is valid and is an effective way of arguing. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541153</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541153</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[BAllanJ:  So, what you are saying is that Luskin is treating Scott&#039;s words like ... the writings in the Bible?  The word of god?  Well, that may actually be a form of progress...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BAllanJ:  So, what you are saying is that Luskin is treating Scott&#8217;s words like &#8230; the writings in the Bible?  The word of god?  Well, that may actually be a form of progress&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: BAllanJ		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541152</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BAllanJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541152</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Remember that Luskin comes from Fundieland.  In Fundieland, when 2 fundies are &quot;arguing&quot;, the argument consists of quote mining the bible at each other to exhaustion. He&#039;s just doing it here because he thinks it&#039;s convincing... it works where he comes from.  I think this is often the problem when fundies try to talk to the rest of us... especially scientists.  Our idea of evidence does not include biblical quote mine tailings.  Our idea of a convincing argument does not include outlasting the other side by sheer volume of repetitive bombast. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember that Luskin comes from Fundieland.  In Fundieland, when 2 fundies are &#8220;arguing&#8221;, the argument consists of quote mining the bible at each other to exhaustion. He&#8217;s just doing it here because he thinks it&#8217;s convincing&#8230; it works where he comes from.  I think this is often the problem when fundies try to talk to the rest of us&#8230; especially scientists.  Our idea of evidence does not include biblical quote mine tailings.  Our idea of a convincing argument does not include outlasting the other side by sheer volume of repetitive bombast. </p>
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		<title>
		By: abb3w		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541151</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[abb3w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541151</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Greg:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;Human exceptionalism would have to be incorporated into the science or the science teaching.&lt;/i&gt;

Which would first need science &lt;b&gt;finding&lt;/b&gt; it, right?

At this point, the unusual aspects of humans are primarily abilities to combine/recombine different types of information and knowledge in order to gain/synthesize/infer new understanding; to apply the same rule or solution to one problem to a different and new situation; to create and apply symbolic representations of computation and sensory input; to detach modes of thought from raw sensory and perceptual input; and possibly to feel disgust.

That&#039;s not much to put us as &quot;God&#039;s special children&quot;.


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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Greg:</b> <i>Human exceptionalism would have to be incorporated into the science or the science teaching.</i></p>
<p>Which would first need science <b>finding</b> it, right?</p>
<p>At this point, the unusual aspects of humans are primarily abilities to combine/recombine different types of information and knowledge in order to gain/synthesize/infer new understanding; to apply the same rule or solution to one problem to a different and new situation; to create and apply symbolic representations of computation and sensory input; to detach modes of thought from raw sensory and perceptual input; and possibly to feel disgust.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not much to put us as &#8220;God&#8217;s special children&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MikeMa		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541150</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeMa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541150</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Old joke: How do you know when Casey Luskin is lying? His lips are moving, of course. 

The man is incapable of honest exposition precisely because of what he&#039;s promoting. How can you promote a lie with truth? If the economy was better, I&#039;d suggest he try an honorable profession like selling used cars.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old joke: How do you know when Casey Luskin is lying? His lips are moving, of course. </p>
<p>The man is incapable of honest exposition precisely because of what he&#8217;s promoting. How can you promote a lie with truth? If the economy was better, I&#8217;d suggest he try an honorable profession like selling used cars.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541149</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541149</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Luskin is so intellectually bereft that I&#039;m surprised anyone ever talks about him any more.  Damnable Liar For Jesus.

Bob nailed it -- there&#039;s a wide spectrum of approaches on the other side of the debate.  We need as many different kinds of approaches to counter them.  If you think of it like a bloodless version of a real-time sim like Age of Empires, each unit on its own is vulnerable to another kind of unit, and only a balanced army is likely to thrive.  If you have too many of one unit, the opposing army constructs the counterunits and you lose.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luskin is so intellectually bereft that I&#8217;m surprised anyone ever talks about him any more.  Damnable Liar For Jesus.</p>
<p>Bob nailed it &#8212; there&#8217;s a wide spectrum of approaches on the other side of the debate.  We need as many different kinds of approaches to counter them.  If you think of it like a bloodless version of a real-time sim like Age of Empires, each unit on its own is vulnerable to another kind of unit, and only a balanced army is likely to thrive.  If you have too many of one unit, the opposing army constructs the counterunits and you lose.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jay		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541148</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541148</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The thing is, in Luskinville and similar locales, not only are there no consequences for quote-mining, but the practice is actually accepted and rewarded. 

People like him seem to sincerely believe that they can strip words out of their surrounding context without changing their meaning and intent.  

We see the practice as pernicious and underhanded.  They see it as routine. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, in Luskinville and similar locales, not only are there no consequences for quote-mining, but the practice is actually accepted and rewarded. </p>
<p>People like him seem to sincerely believe that they can strip words out of their surrounding context without changing their meaning and intent.  </p>
<p>We see the practice as pernicious and underhanded.  They see it as routine. </p>
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		<title>
		By: oldcola		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541147</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[oldcola]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541147</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Why would &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; be anything &lt;i&gt;special&lt;/i&gt;? 
Usual Wedge Strategy movement here, no?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would <i>that</i> be anything <i>special</i>?<br />
Usual Wedge Strategy movement here, no?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bob		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541146</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/08/05/the-problem-with-appeasement-o/#comment-541146</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This illustrates why it&#039;s important to have a spectrum of voices and confrontational styles when communicating science. My mom would probably get along with Genie Scott; PZ&#039;s &#039;Crackergate&#039; would probably not fly with her. OTOH, someone needs to go toe-to-toe with the Luskins, O&#039;Reillys and Bill Donohues of the world; for them, I&#039;d prefer the someone with the rapier wit of a Frank Zappa, a Bill Hicks, a John Waters. Someone who can dish it out twice as good as they can and keep calm and composed to doubly infuriate their opponents.

I know, Mooney et. al. have &#039;proven&#039; beyond a shadow of doubt that giving these asshats a public drubbing is counterproductive, damaging even; I should &quot;Shut up, that&#039;s why.&quot; and leave this to the self-appointed pros. After all, they have evidence to back up their position, which I presume is only temporarily unavailable, just like Bush&#039;s WMDs and Capt. Caine&#039;s strawberries. In the interim, I want a spokesman with a rhetorical cricket bat to tenderize the headbones of the Discovery Institute&#039;s trained buffoons. Let Genie Scott reach the reachable and teach the teachable, and leave the rest to those with a take-no-prisoners approach.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This illustrates why it&#8217;s important to have a spectrum of voices and confrontational styles when communicating science. My mom would probably get along with Genie Scott; PZ&#8217;s &#8216;Crackergate&#8217; would probably not fly with her. OTOH, someone needs to go toe-to-toe with the Luskins, O&#8217;Reillys and Bill Donohues of the world; for them, I&#8217;d prefer the someone with the rapier wit of a Frank Zappa, a Bill Hicks, a John Waters. Someone who can dish it out twice as good as they can and keep calm and composed to doubly infuriate their opponents.</p>
<p>I know, Mooney et. al. have &#8216;proven&#8217; beyond a shadow of doubt that giving these asshats a public drubbing is counterproductive, damaging even; I should &#8220;Shut up, that&#8217;s why.&#8221; and leave this to the self-appointed pros. After all, they have evidence to back up their position, which I presume is only temporarily unavailable, just like Bush&#8217;s WMDs and Capt. Caine&#8217;s strawberries. In the interim, I want a spokesman with a rhetorical cricket bat to tenderize the headbones of the Discovery Institute&#8217;s trained buffoons. Let Genie Scott reach the reachable and teach the teachable, and leave the rest to those with a take-no-prisoners approach.</p>
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