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	Comments on: Microsoft ships IE7 without browser?	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Dan J		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537973</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537973</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An anonymous coward wrote: &quot;I love when bloggers who don&#039;t know a mouse from their own ass write about technology matters. The euro version of windows7 will ship without the IE8 BROWSER. The underlying rendering engine that is intergrated into windows explorer is still there.&quot;

If you had actually &lt;em&gt;read&lt;/em&gt; Greg&#039;s post, you would know that the typo comes from the BBC&#039;s original report: &quot;Microsoft ships IE7 without browser&quot;

And if you actually read this blog with any regularity, you would know that Greg has a great deal of technical knowledge when it comes to personal computers. Would you care to make a relevant comment next time?

I like the fact that Ubuntu comes with Firefox as the default browser, but I also make use of Epiphany, the default browser for Gnome. The Safari version for Windows works under wine if you jump through a few extra hoops during install.

I&#039;m still waiting to see a really great rendering engine. I do like Safari&#039;s support of more CSS3. Upcoming Firefox releases promise more of this, but it still lags behind.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An anonymous coward wrote: &#8220;I love when bloggers who don&#8217;t know a mouse from their own ass write about technology matters. The euro version of windows7 will ship without the IE8 BROWSER. The underlying rendering engine that is intergrated into windows explorer is still there.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you had actually <em>read</em> Greg&#8217;s post, you would know that the typo comes from the BBC&#8217;s original report: &#8220;Microsoft ships IE7 without browser&#8221;</p>
<p>And if you actually read this blog with any regularity, you would know that Greg has a great deal of technical knowledge when it comes to personal computers. Would you care to make a relevant comment next time?</p>
<p>I like the fact that Ubuntu comes with Firefox as the default browser, but I also make use of Epiphany, the default browser for Gnome. The Safari version for Windows works under wine if you jump through a few extra hoops during install.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still waiting to see a really great rendering engine. I do like Safari&#8217;s support of more CSS3. Upcoming Firefox releases promise more of this, but it still lags behind.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537972</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537972</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, it&#039;s a lot like that -- while shipping with Safari by default is &quot;okay&quot; because Mac OS X doesn&#039;t have a monopoly position on the home PC market, theoretically Safari has preferential placement in the Mac OS stack.  For a good while, though, Macs didn&#039;t come with a browser, and you had to get IE for it (or have it preinstalled or come with the ISP setup disk).  IE by the way is available only up to 5.5 for Macs -- Microsoft has decided to stop updating them with the latest version.  Since Safari, Opera and Firefox / Mozilla are all cross-platform though, there is as much competition on the Mac.  IE isn&#039;t exactly competitive.

Also, Safari&#039;s HTML renderer (which by the way is based off of KHTML, KDE / Konqueror&#039;s open-source renderer) is not tied into the operating system the way that IE&#039;s is.  Microsoft made a design choice to reuse the HTML renderer for a ton of other features like their Windows Explorer.  While that&#039;s a valid choice, it&#039;s technically tying the core of their browser to the OS so that the browser itself is essentially a way to store bookmarks and load add-ons on top of the existing OS.  This is anticompetitive by its very nature, because even if you rid yourself of the browser, the rendering engine (and all its flaws) is still part of the core of the OS.  Tangentially, tying the OS to the rendering engine gives the rendering engine far more ability to compromise your system than it, by rights, ever should.  This is the real reason most spyware targets Windows vectors -- integration is putting all your eggs in one basket so someone with a hammer can more easily smash all the eggs at once.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a lot like that &#8212; while shipping with Safari by default is &#8220;okay&#8221; because Mac OS X doesn&#8217;t have a monopoly position on the home PC market, theoretically Safari has preferential placement in the Mac OS stack.  For a good while, though, Macs didn&#8217;t come with a browser, and you had to get IE for it (or have it preinstalled or come with the ISP setup disk).  IE by the way is available only up to 5.5 for Macs &#8212; Microsoft has decided to stop updating them with the latest version.  Since Safari, Opera and Firefox / Mozilla are all cross-platform though, there is as much competition on the Mac.  IE isn&#8217;t exactly competitive.</p>
<p>Also, Safari&#8217;s HTML renderer (which by the way is based off of KHTML, KDE / Konqueror&#8217;s open-source renderer) is not tied into the operating system the way that IE&#8217;s is.  Microsoft made a design choice to reuse the HTML renderer for a ton of other features like their Windows Explorer.  While that&#8217;s a valid choice, it&#8217;s technically tying the core of their browser to the OS so that the browser itself is essentially a way to store bookmarks and load add-ons on top of the existing OS.  This is anticompetitive by its very nature, because even if you rid yourself of the browser, the rendering engine (and all its flaws) is still part of the core of the OS.  Tangentially, tying the OS to the rendering engine gives the rendering engine far more ability to compromise your system than it, by rights, ever should.  This is the real reason most spyware targets Windows vectors &#8212; integration is putting all your eggs in one basket so someone with a hammer can more easily smash all the eggs at once.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doug		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537971</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537971</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is there a difference between Windows coming with IE and OS X coming with Safari? With XP I thought it was something to do with the fact that IE was so integral that it couldn&#039;t be uninstalled. Now I&#039;m just lost.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a difference between Windows coming with IE and OS X coming with Safari? With XP I thought it was something to do with the fact that IE was so integral that it couldn&#8217;t be uninstalled. Now I&#8217;m just lost.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537970</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537970</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And why is an HTML renderer an absolutely drop-dead feature of an operating system?  Considering all the other proprietary rendering aspects of the system, why is HTML absolutely necessary outside the context of a web browser?  Especially considering all the other potential uses, e.g. the help rendering system, already have proprietary file formats and rendering?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And why is an HTML renderer an absolutely drop-dead feature of an operating system?  Considering all the other proprietary rendering aspects of the system, why is HTML absolutely necessary outside the context of a web browser?  Especially considering all the other potential uses, e.g. the help rendering system, already have proprietary file formats and rendering?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sevesteen		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537969</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sevesteen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537969</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I seem to remember that the EU said shipping with IE only wasn&#039;t allowed, and wanted them to either ship with Firefox, or allow vendors to ship with Firefox.  Microsoft decided that instead of allowing Firefox, they would offer a &quot;no browser&quot; version. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to remember that the EU said shipping with IE only wasn&#8217;t allowed, and wanted them to either ship with Firefox, or allow vendors to ship with Firefox.  Microsoft decided that instead of allowing Firefox, they would offer a &#8220;no browser&#8221; version. </p>
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		<title>
		By: anon		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537968</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537968</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Funny how the browser was integral and a drop dead feature when MS was being sued by Nestcape, and now it is something they can actually ship the OS without. &quot;

I love when bloggers who don&#039;t know a mouse from their own ass write about technology matters. The euro version of windows7 will ship without the IE8 BROWSER. The underlying rendering engine that is intergrated into windows explorer is still there. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Funny how the browser was integral and a drop dead feature when MS was being sued by Nestcape, and now it is something they can actually ship the OS without. &#8221;</p>
<p>I love when bloggers who don&#8217;t know a mouse from their own ass write about technology matters. The euro version of windows7 will ship without the IE8 BROWSER. The underlying rendering engine that is intergrated into windows explorer is still there. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537967</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537967</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I grant you that.  Don&#039;t know what good a web browser is without a network connection, unless you contend that reading local HTML files is a common use for home users that might not have network connections.  It does, however, mean that this installation wizard must be accessible after the setup as well, if MS is capable of any sort of foresight.  Someone might not have a network connection when they set up the OS initially.

Also, they might get around the whole &quot;pre-bundled&quot; thing by including the installer cabs on the Windows install, but not installing it explicitly until you choose the defaults in the opening screen.  In fact, it might just give you the options between &quot;install IE 8&quot; and &quot;don&#039;t install a web browser&quot;, unless the OEM includes installs for Firefox or co-branded proprietary OEM nonsense.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grant you that.  Don&#8217;t know what good a web browser is without a network connection, unless you contend that reading local HTML files is a common use for home users that might not have network connections.  It does, however, mean that this installation wizard must be accessible after the setup as well, if MS is capable of any sort of foresight.  Someone might not have a network connection when they set up the OS initially.</p>
<p>Also, they might get around the whole &#8220;pre-bundled&#8221; thing by including the installer cabs on the Windows install, but not installing it explicitly until you choose the defaults in the opening screen.  In fact, it might just give you the options between &#8220;install IE 8&#8221; and &#8220;don&#8217;t install a web browser&#8221;, unless the OEM includes installs for Firefox or co-branded proprietary OEM nonsense.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Aaron Luchko		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537966</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Luchko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537966</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;My understanding is that it will ship with the ability to download and install the browser during the initial installation phase, in-line with setting your security settings and hostname.&quot;

That would still require a network connection.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My understanding is that it will ship with the ability to download and install the browser during the initial installation phase, in-line with setting your security settings and hostname.&#8221;</p>
<p>That would still require a network connection.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Thibeault		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537965</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Thibeault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537965</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My understanding is that it will ship with the ability to download and install the browser during the initial installation phase, in-line with setting your security settings and hostname.  No need to FTP down a browser via Windows Explorer or any of that.  It says you&#039;ll be able to select a different browser, so maybe it will automate getting the latest Firefox and installing it as well.  ...NAH.  It&#039;ll probably make installing Firefox possible but way less intuitive than choosing all the defaults.

I contend that they should go all the way, rip off Ubuntu&#039;s biggest advantage, and ship Windows with nothing but a repository manager; and that repository manager include the ability to download a number of common alternatives off the bat.  Maintain an &quot;official Windows Web Installer&quot; where anyone can submit applications to meet their &quot;rigorous&quot; standards before they let the application into their official repository.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that it will ship with the ability to download and install the browser during the initial installation phase, in-line with setting your security settings and hostname.  No need to FTP down a browser via Windows Explorer or any of that.  It says you&#8217;ll be able to select a different browser, so maybe it will automate getting the latest Firefox and installing it as well.  &#8230;NAH.  It&#8217;ll probably make installing Firefox possible but way less intuitive than choosing all the defaults.</p>
<p>I contend that they should go all the way, rip off Ubuntu&#8217;s biggest advantage, and ship Windows with nothing but a repository manager; and that repository manager include the ability to download a number of common alternatives off the bat.  Maintain an &#8220;official Windows Web Installer&#8221; where anyone can submit applications to meet their &#8220;rigorous&#8221; standards before they let the application into their official repository.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Aaron Luchko		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537964</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Luchko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/13/microsoft-ships-ie7-without-br/#comment-537964</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think the best approach is to let them bundle whatever they want in the boxed version but to let the OEMs pick and choose what they want to include on their versions.

It&#039;s hard to tell from the article if this is what the ruling does, and if it doesn&#039;t do this why not. But I get the feeling that MS is going to sell boxed versions without a browser than use that somewhat absurd scenario to claim that the EU is making them ship a broken OS.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the best approach is to let them bundle whatever they want in the boxed version but to let the OEMs pick and choose what they want to include on their versions.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to tell from the article if this is what the ruling does, and if it doesn&#8217;t do this why not. But I get the feeling that MS is going to sell boxed versions without a browser than use that somewhat absurd scenario to claim that the EU is making them ship a broken OS.</p>
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