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	<title>
	Comments on: Ultimate Causes, Proximate Mechanisms	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535746</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 10:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535746</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like the way Darwin undoes the prospect of eugenics with the very last phrase in this quote.

I don&#039;t see Darwin explicity stating that humans (as social primates) evolved a &quot;do it for the group&quot; instinct.  Rather he postulates an &quot;instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts&quot;  To me that implies reduce aggression, increased sociality, increased social intelligence, etc. which is what we would expect individuals to benefit from in a social setting because of the multi-part game that a social milieu is, essentially.  His is not (in this quote) an explicitly non-group selectionist argument, but it is not an explicit group selection argument either. 

It is impossible, though, to really assess Darwin&#039;s group-selectionist orientation or lack thereof because in his day the concept was not clearly articulated.  

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the way Darwin undoes the prospect of eugenics with the very last phrase in this quote.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see Darwin explicity stating that humans (as social primates) evolved a &#8220;do it for the group&#8221; instinct.  Rather he postulates an &#8220;instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts&#8221;  To me that implies reduce aggression, increased sociality, increased social intelligence, etc. which is what we would expect individuals to benefit from in a social setting because of the multi-part game that a social milieu is, essentially.  His is not (in this quote) an explicitly non-group selectionist argument, but it is not an explicit group selection argument either. </p>
<p>It is impossible, though, to really assess Darwin&#8217;s group-selectionist orientation or lack thereof because in his day the concept was not clearly articulated.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Glazius		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535745</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glazius]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 10:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535745</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The paraphrased quote is in its original form here: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-complete-darwin-quote-with-a-brief-translation/

&lt;blcokquote&gt;We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man itself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The paraphrased quote is in its original form here: <a href="http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-complete-darwin-quote-with-a-brief-translation/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-complete-darwin-quote-with-a-brief-translation/</a></p>
<p><blcokquote>We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man itself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.</p>
<p>The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.</blcokquote></p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535744</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535744</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Stoned.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stoned.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: D. C. Sessions		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535743</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. C. Sessions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535743</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg, are paleolithic puns best appreciated when listening to oldies stations?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, are paleolithic puns best appreciated when listening to oldies stations?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Azkyroth		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535742</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Azkyroth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 19:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535742</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems to me as though it&#039;s somewhat analogous to the evolution of traits in certain butterflies that make them A) horribly unpleasant to consume and B) very brightly colored.  Yet the bright colors surely increase the odds of a particular butterfly being spotted and eaten (or fatally wounded by the first bite, or injured in a way that makes its death likely later, or...) by a predator that hasn&#039;t figured out that &quot;these things taste bad.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me as though it&#8217;s somewhat analogous to the evolution of traits in certain butterflies that make them A) horribly unpleasant to consume and B) very brightly colored.  Yet the bright colors surely increase the odds of a particular butterfly being spotted and eaten (or fatally wounded by the first bite, or injured in a way that makes its death likely later, or&#8230;) by a predator that hasn&#8217;t figured out that &#8220;these things taste bad.&#8221;</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535741</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 19:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535741</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Terry:  Nice point. 

(which is also a very subtle paleolithic pun)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry:  Nice point. </p>
<p>(which is also a very subtle paleolithic pun)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Terry Schubring		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535740</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terry Schubring]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 18:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535740</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Another explanation may be that humans didn&#039;t evolve with threats that were as certain to be fatal as a hand grenade. Passively watching a tiger or Neanderthal kill my friends would eventually lead to my own death. Facing a threat immediately with my tribe intact would offer a better chance for my own survival. A hand grenade can&#039;t be overpowered or frightened, so my normal response to a threat to the group is inappropriate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another explanation may be that humans didn&#8217;t evolve with threats that were as certain to be fatal as a hand grenade. Passively watching a tiger or Neanderthal kill my friends would eventually lead to my own death. Facing a threat immediately with my tribe intact would offer a better chance for my own survival. A hand grenade can&#8217;t be overpowered or frightened, so my normal response to a threat to the group is inappropriate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535738</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 16:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535738</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OK, well, that was awkward....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, well, that was awkward&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: D. C. Sessions		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535739</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. C. Sessions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 16:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535739</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;It&#039;s called &quot;lynksys&quot; or something. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s the router equivalent of &quot;I&#039;m &lt;b&gt;soooooo&lt;/b&gt; drunk!&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It&#8217;s called &#8220;lynksys&#8221; or something. </p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s the router equivalent of &#8220;I&#8217;m <b>soooooo</b> drunk!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Art		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535737</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Art]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 16:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/05/14/ultimate-causes-proximate-mech/#comment-535737</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Heroic, hazardous, and potentially fatal actions may pay off as a personal style. The daredevil habit often brings admiration. As the saying goes: &#039;Women want to be with you; men want to be you&#039;. If you earn the Metal of Honor and live, most don&#039;t, protocol demands that every uniformed service member, without regard to service or rank, salute you. You enter a room wearing the metal and generals are obliged to stand and render honors. Heady stuff for a private.

If things go too far wrong and you end up dead your reputation and the admiration outlives you. Throw yourself on a grenade and your a candidate for The Metal of Honor. Heroic action is a way of gaining status and avoiding anonymity. 

Another side to this is that some people fear, and or loath, the idea of growing old. A friend watched his father die slowly of Alzheimer&#039;s. He found out he is genetically predisposed to the disease, and colon cancer. His desire to live to a &#039;ripe-old-age&#039; is tarnished and his tolerance for risk increased. He has given up his car for a motorcycle. Taken up skydiving. Learned to scuba dive. Got divorced. Took up dating wild women. At work he volunteers for all the most hazardous jobs.

Irony is he is, by all accounts, having a ball. 

Much of our present economic system seems to be intent on inducing feelings of inadequacy in consumers. Inadequacy that the system tells you can be corrected by buying the right car, or living in a bigger house, or wearing the right clothing. The disappointment felt after you get the stuff and find out your still the ugly duckling serves to reinforce the feeling of weakness.

It also shifts value away from what you are to what you do and, more specifically, how much money you make. Status, money and power are the brass ring. People are often willing to lean out very far, and risk extinction, to grab it. 

To me this makes far more sense than the classic model of trading ones life to protect some greater percentage of your genetic identity.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heroic, hazardous, and potentially fatal actions may pay off as a personal style. The daredevil habit often brings admiration. As the saying goes: &#8216;Women want to be with you; men want to be you&#8217;. If you earn the Metal of Honor and live, most don&#8217;t, protocol demands that every uniformed service member, without regard to service or rank, salute you. You enter a room wearing the metal and generals are obliged to stand and render honors. Heady stuff for a private.</p>
<p>If things go too far wrong and you end up dead your reputation and the admiration outlives you. Throw yourself on a grenade and your a candidate for The Metal of Honor. Heroic action is a way of gaining status and avoiding anonymity. </p>
<p>Another side to this is that some people fear, and or loath, the idea of growing old. A friend watched his father die slowly of Alzheimer&#8217;s. He found out he is genetically predisposed to the disease, and colon cancer. His desire to live to a &#8216;ripe-old-age&#8217; is tarnished and his tolerance for risk increased. He has given up his car for a motorcycle. Taken up skydiving. Learned to scuba dive. Got divorced. Took up dating wild women. At work he volunteers for all the most hazardous jobs.</p>
<p>Irony is he is, by all accounts, having a ball. </p>
<p>Much of our present economic system seems to be intent on inducing feelings of inadequacy in consumers. Inadequacy that the system tells you can be corrected by buying the right car, or living in a bigger house, or wearing the right clothing. The disappointment felt after you get the stuff and find out your still the ugly duckling serves to reinforce the feeling of weakness.</p>
<p>It also shifts value away from what you are to what you do and, more specifically, how much money you make. Status, money and power are the brass ring. People are often willing to lean out very far, and risk extinction, to grab it. </p>
<p>To me this makes far more sense than the classic model of trading ones life to protect some greater percentage of your genetic identity.  </p>
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