I do need a haircut, though.

Spiv, more later, but I think it has to start with deflating the myths that make a gun a symbol of entitlement for far too many people. You know, some real discussion of what using one buys you (or doesn’t) and what it costs. That’s part of what I was working to do with the post Greg linked to.

Spiv: Greg does not have a specific plan at this time.

I also apologize for the trailer related comments. Where I grew up it referred to a certain type of person, unrelated to their socio-economic class. I’m a firm believe in judging on the quality of character alone.

Greg: speaking of, what would you like to see done? IE what is the ultimate level of ownership you would like to see achieved?

Michael, they never had a chance with arms. Had, say, a Jewish ghetto organized an armed resistance, they would have simply been starved or burnt out where they were. Don’t underestimate the political will or military organization it took to create the Holocaust.

One only needs to look at the Warsaw uprising in ’44 to understand how the Nazis would have dealt with armed insurrection.

As to stereotypes, don’t assume anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a gun owner, either. I am. I also happen to have spent several years of my life growing up in a trailer, so you can drop the classist name calling too.

If you want to actually know what I think will make the most difference, try asking. Right now, I’m mostly trying to figure out why we can’t talk about it without all the hostility.

To the rest, the implication that gun ownership automatically relegates one to right wing, uneducated trailer trash is more than a little bit insulting. I, like many others, happen to be a non-religious, liberal democrat, holding a variety of higher educational degrees. I’m a gun-owning hippie if anything. Myself and the standard wingnut do not have pleasant conversations when it involves political, social, or economic concerns.

The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge: You make a well reasoned point against the 2nd amendment argument. One of the better ones I’ve seen. To this level I think it does settle the 2nd amendment requirement even if you do ban all personal firearms ownership, though the courts clearly do not agree, and take the side of the supposed ‘spirit’ of the law (as in the Jeffersonian interpretation). I don’t know how I feel about that, other than it being a convenient tool to maintain personal ownership rights.

Which I suppose is my point- even if you throw out the 2nd amendment, court upheld precedents, I still view it as the removal of personal freedoms in such a way as to imply guilt prior to intent or action.

As for rifles vs pistols: the debate of banning handguns comes up from time to time, and the usual people against are police force. Apparently the standard issue vest is not terribly effective at preventing puncture by rifle grained rounds, and they feel it would sway the type of thing they are up against. Frankly I don’t buy the argument. I’m also a long range target person who almost always leaves the pistols at home and view them almost exclusively as collector/historical items. I do not believe in home defense via firearms either. I keep all such things impossibly hard to get to, and secured to prevent theft should someone break into my home (no desire to contribute to the stolen arms market). However, there are many people who find their enjoyment in firearms used for hunting, or pistol-range practice (which admittedly is much more convenient, most ranges do not allow rifles around here). It seems greedy and petty to remove their right simply because it is not my desire.

Most anti-regulation is about preventing ownership from becoming a slippery slope. Chipping away until the industry shrinks and eventually makes non-military firearms impossible to obtain. It’s that whole “when they came for me … there was no one left to speak up” thing.

I stand by my original solution: freaking take care of our mentally ill, work to remove the stigma and obstacles surrounding treatment, and enforce the laws we already have. I’m also for stricter transport and storage rules, but there’s not really a good way to enforce this.